Are we in the tribulation

[sailorsam]

I

I won't go any further in what I believe. I figure I've already said enough to get modern Christians to throwing rocks at me.

no rock.
I believe the book was written for all of us, all times.
there is a special blessing for reading  the Revelation.  "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." (Rev 1:3)
if one's heart is right with God no reason to be anxious.
I feel bad for the people that will go through it.

[Grace]

I normally don't comment in threads about Revelation or "end times". What I believe has a sever tendency to piss off modern Christians. I've seen preachers get red in the face and ball their fists up like they were about to try and whoop me for it. So I don't generally enter the discussions even in the real world. Life is too short to spend it arguing with folks over inconsequential things, so I try not to.

Therefore, I'll say a few things only once, and try to be done with it.

First, you are right about the nature of time - it's not at all like we experience it, sequentially. That's just the only way we can experience time in a mortal body.

But the subject of Revelations is even deeper and more convoluted than that. It's my understanding that Revelations is actually in seven sections, and all of those sections overlap one another, like pancakes stacked in a pile. Each one describes the same events, but from a different perspective (or from a different "level", going with the pancake analogy here) than the others. It was written that way as an "apocalypse", a "hidden work", to make it harder to tease out the actual threads. In a way, it's encrypted.

To further complicate it, Revelations was written in symbols and symbolic "code", to hide it's revelations from prying eyes who, in the first century AD, were not privy to the Christian teachings of those days. A "New Jerusalem" may not be, and is probably not, and actual physical cubic city larger than the earth flying out of the sky like a comet to obliterate what is now, physically. A "temple" may not be, and probably is not, a large cubic building on the top of Mount Moriah. The "Great Whore of Babylon" may not be, and probably is not, an actual sex worker in the Iraqi desert wastes where a great city once stood. That sort of thing.

These milennialist perspectives that try to sort out a timeline from Revelations, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel primarily, are all modern inventions. They are no older than the first half of the nineteenth century. Schofield tried to flesh them out with his Bible annotations... but what does it say at the end of revelations about that sort of activity? Tim LaHaye has certainly gone a long way in popularizing Schofield's heresy.

I believe that all of the events of revelations were fulfilled nearly 2000 years ago, and were not written for our eyes or understanding. Rather, it was written for Christians in the first century, when they actually DID go through some severe persecutions and tribulations. "This generation shall not pass..."

I believe Jesus when he said the Kingdom is spiritual, not "of this world". if that is the case, if he was not lying, then of what possible use would an Earthy Millennial reign be to him? It would be an abdication of his throne in the spiritual Kingdom.

I believe that Kingdom was instituted 2000 years ago with the words "It is finished".

I won't go any further in what I believe. I figure I've already said enough to get modern Christians to throwing rocks at me.

The description of Revelation as you described, sections told from 7 perspectives, is what I posted... It's taught this way by Dr. Baucham, and I posted free access to his sermon section on Revelation.. I believe it's 10 or more sermons in total, but I've never counted. 

I just wanted you to know that.

[Ninurta]

The description of Revelation as you described, sections told from 7 perspectives, is what I posted... It's taught this way by Dr. Baucham, and I posted free access to his sermon section on Revelation.. I believe it's 10 or more sermons in total, but I've never counted. 

I just wanted you to know that.

Good to know. I was told that by Jack Hamilton in Newport News VA in the mid-1980's, but he never explained to me just where the sections were, or how they broke down. He and his wife have both gone on  to their rewards now, so I'll have to check out the videos to get a real grip on it.

Jack was a smart man, and had immersed himself in the Bible for decades. He came as an interim pastor after the church got blown up by a young pastor over money, and stayed for the rest of my time at that church. He was already retired from another, bigger church, and was supposed to only be a fill-in, but got roped into more or less permanency.

Every October, he preached a "Reformation Day" sermon in commemoration of Martin Luther nailing the "95 Theses" to the church door in Wurtemberg Germany as I recall - but I might not be recalling that exactly right.

Jack gave all of his parishioners the equivalent of a seminary education in Reformation Theology, and what he didn't cover in the pulpit he had books for in the lobby. That's where I got my copy of "Lex Rex". He had an antiquarian bookstore on the side. At one time I had a King James Bible printed in 1820 that I got there, as well as a copy of the complete works of Josephus that I also got there.

Smart man, and funny. He once told me, while sitting in his bookshop pricing some books he'd gotten at an estate sale, that there were golf courses in Heaven. I asked him why he thought that, and he said "I like playing golf. It wouldn't be heaven without golf courses. therefore, there must be golf courses in Heaven."

Another time, he asked me if I knew someone, and I responded "No, I wouldn't know him from Adam" Without even looking up, Jack just said "Adam didn't have a navel." Which took me aback. So I asked, Why wouldn't Adam have a navel?" Jack simply responded that "Adam was created, not born of a woman. Only folks born of a woman have to have a navel."

.

.

.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

Well since we are throwing out our "what ifs", that often visit our minds, let me join in.

"Thy kingdom come." ???? A kingdom not here yet but is coming.

7 heavens? 7 seals? 7 trumpets? 7 bowls? 7 perspectives? Why 7? 

Is there a separate heaven for each kingdom? Will we have to make it through each kingdom? 

If we fail do we go back to the last one we passed, like in a video game?

Are we a video game?

If we are a simulation or a video game, I seem to be stuck at a Boss level that I can't beat even with the cheat codes. 

Don't mind me I just woke up, my head is hurting, and my heart is doing some kind of funky arrhythmia, no chest pains though. Debating on whether I want to spend the day in the ER. 

Well I will see how it goes after I take care of the crits and get dressed.

Will check in later. If I don't, you guys are the greatest.    

[Ninurta]

Well since we are throwing out our "what ifs", that often visit our minds, let me join in.

"Thy kingdom come." ???? A kingdom not here yet but is coming.

That prayer was formulated 2000 years ago, before the Kingdom was inaugurated. From the perspective of it's time, the Kingdom had not yet come, and that line of the  prayer is a plea to bring it on. We read it now after the fact, after the Kingdom has already been established.

7 heavens? 7 seals? 7 trumpets? 7 bowls? 7 perspectives? Why 7?

Is there a separate heaven for each kingdom? Will we have to make it through each kingdom? 

If we fail do we go back to the last one we passed, like in a video game?

Are we a video game?

If we are a simulation or a video game, I seem to be stuck at a Boss level that I can't beat even with the cheat codes. 

The number 7 is symbolic of completion, perfection. It's symbolic, not mean to be taken literally.

Don't mind me I just woke up, my head is hurting, and my heart is doing some kind of funky arrhythmia, no chest pains though. Debating on whether I want to spend the day in the ER. 

Well I will see how it goes after I take care of the crits and get dressed.

Will check in later. If I don't, you guys are the greatest.    

Be well. I had a similar experience a few months ago, and it was a wake-up call for me. For me, the arrhythmia was a "panicky" feeling, an irregular pounding of the heart like I was going in and out of an adrenaline induced fight or flight response, but with no detectable stimulus for that. It kinda spooked me, and Grace knew there was something squarely wrong when I said "time to get me to a hospital, I reckon". That kinda scared her, as it's like pulling teeth from a chicken to get me anywhere near a medical facility. I usually treat my own ailments out of the woods or fields, and always have since I was old enough to know how... but this was something I didn't know how to treat, so when I mentioned going to the hospital, she figured it must be something pretty serious, and I think it spooked her a bit. Maybe more than it was spooking me.

Anyhow, at the hospital they hooked me up to stuff I've never been hooked up to before - IV's (nope, never had one of those before) EKG's, and even brought in some kind of portable x-ray gizzy. brought it to me so they didn't have to take me to it. Never seen anything like that before, either, probably because I avoid doctors like the plague, so I'm not up on current technology.

Turned out my heart was just flirting with A-fib. It would jump into it for a short time, then right back out like it knew it was making a mistake or something. More out than in, but when it was in, it just felt to me like an adrenaline rush, nothing new to me, but the experience of it without any rhyme or reason WAS a new thing.

Making a long story short, they just kept me under observation for about 6 hours, checked my labs and electrolyte levels and everything looked ok, they couldn't figure out a reason for it, either. So they put me on Eliquis to keep my blood thin and metoprolol to regulate my heartbeat and cut me loose. I reckon I'll be on those drugs the rest of my days, or at least as long as they are available to me.

Scared the crap out of me for a minute, to the point that I was considering writing a letter to my son to be read only after I croaked, if that event was imminent. But it's ok now, I've calmed my silly ass down about it. I just move a little slower, and if my heart starts doing a tango, I can usually get it to stop immediately by, of all things, just taking a deep breath. I've also done my homework since then to find out what I need out of the woods if the prescribed drugs ever become unavailable to me.  I went up into the woods about a month and a half ago and got some ginseng berries while they were showing, and brought them back to plant in shady spots in my yard for safekeeping from poachers. That was when I discovered that I have several thousand dollars worth of ginseng all around me. I left it all there in the ground for a rainy day, in case I need it later, and just brought back the berries to plant. It's a replacement for the Eliquis, but takes a year and a half to even sprout, and about 3 to 5 more years before it's big enough to harvest.

Hang in there and be well - You'll be fine, 'cause I'm convinced you're tougher than I am!

.

[GeauxHomeLittleD]

Well since we are throwing out our "what ifs", that often visit our minds, let me join in.

"Thy kingdom come." ???? A kingdom not here yet but is coming.

That prayer was formulated 2000 years ago, before the Kingdom was inaugurated. From the perspective of it's time, the Kingdom had not yet come, and that line of the  prayer is a plea to bring it on. We read it now after the fact, after the Kingdom has already been established.

7 heavens? 7 seals? 7 trumpets? 7 bowls? 7 perspectives? Why 7?

Is there a separate heaven for each kingdom? Will we have to make it through each kingdom? 

If we fail do we go back to the last one we passed, like in a video game?

Are we a video game?

If we are a simulation or a video game, I seem to be stuck at a Boss level that I can't beat even with the cheat codes. 

The number 7 is symbolic of completion, perfection. It's symbolic, not mean to be taken literally.

Don't mind me I just woke up, my head is hurting, and my heart is doing some kind of funky arrhythmia, no chest pains though. Debating on whether I want to spend the day in the ER. 

Well I will see how it goes after I take care of the crits and get dressed.

Will check in later. If I don't, you guys are the greatest.    

Be well. I had a similar experience a few months ago, and it was a wake-up call for me. For me, the arrhythmia was a "panicky" feeling, an irregular pounding of the heart like I was going in and out of an adrenaline induced fight or flight response, but with no detectable stimulus for that. It kinda spooked me, and Grace knew there was something squarely wrong when I said "time to get me to a hospital, I reckon". That kinda scared her, as it's like pulling teeth from a chicken to get me anywhere near a medical facility. I usually treat my own ailments out of the woods or fields, and always have since I was old enough to know how... but this was something I didn't know how to treat, so when I mentioned going to the hospital, she figured it must be something pretty serious, and I think it spooked her a bit. Maybe more than it was spooking me.

Anyhow, at the hospital they hooked me up to stuff I've never been hooked up to before - IV's (nope, never had one of those before) EKG's, and even brought in some kind of portable x-ray gizzy. brought it to me so they didn't have to take me to it. Never seen anything like that before, either, probably because I avoid doctors like the plague, so I'm not up on current technology.

Turned out my heart was just flirting with A-fib. It would jump into it for a short time, then right back out like it knew it was making a mistake or something. More out than in, but when it was in, it just felt to me like an adrenaline rush, nothing new to me, but the experience of it without any rhyme or reason WAS a new thing.

Making a long story short, they just kept me under observation for about 6 hours, checked my labs and electrolyte levels and everything looked ok, they couldn't figure out a reason for it, either. So they put me on Eliquis to keep my blood thin and metoprolol to regulate my heartbeat and cut me loose. I reckon I'll be on those drugs the rest of my days, or at least as long as they are available to me.

Scared the crap out of me for a minute, to the point that I was considering writing a letter to my son to be read only after I croaked, if that event was imminent. But it's ok now, I've calmed my silly ass down about it. I just move a little slower, and if my heart starts doing a tango, I can usually get it to stop immediately by, of all things, just taking a deep breath. I've also done my homework since then to find out what I need out of the woods if the prescribed drugs ever become unavailable to me.  I went up into the woods about a month and a half ago and got some ginseng berries while they were showing, and brought them back to plant in shady spots in my yard for safekeeping from poachers. That was when I discovered that I have several thousand dollars worth of ginseng all around me. I left it all there in the ground for a rainy day, in case I need it later, and just brought back the berries to plant. It's a replacement for the Eliquis, but takes a year and a half to even sprout, and about 3 to 5 more years before it's big enough to harvest.

Hang in there and be well - You'll be fine, 'cause I'm convinced you're tougher than I am!

.

Also don't forget the inner bark of white willow when dried and crushed is basically nature's BC Powder.  It will adequately substitute as a blood thinner or pain killer, just boil a tablespoon of dried, crushed inner bark scrapings in a cup of water and drink.

[Cvastar]

I understand the tribulation to be the persecution of the church (Revelation ch1 v9). The collapse of the world follows on from that (ch8 onwards).

If the plague, war, famine and consequent death continue long enough, it's just possible that we might be in the Four Horsemen period of Revelation ch6, which is the short-term collapse of the world. The Beast would arrive in the recovery period, leading the way, and THEN comes the tribulation.

It's all in my ATS Revelation threads (2012) and also in my book ("Silence in Heaven", available in all good bookstores).

Thanks, that's my vague understanding of the projected course of events.  Maybe I should buy your book?

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

Be well. I had a similar experience a few months ago, and it was a wake-up call for me. For me, the arrhythmia was a "panicky" feeling, an irregular pounding of the heart like I was going in and out of an adrenaline induced fight or flight response, but with no detectable stimulus for that. It kinda spooked me, and Grace knew there was something squarely wrong when I said "time to get me to a hospital, I reckon". That kinda scared her, as it's like pulling teeth from a chicken to get me anywhere near a medical facility. I usually treat my own ailments out of the woods or fields, and always have since I was old enough to know how... but this was something I didn't know how to treat, so when I mentioned going to the hospital, she figured it must be something pretty serious, and I think it spooked her a bit. Maybe more than it was spooking me.

Anyhow, at the hospital they hooked me up to stuff I've never been hooked up to before - IV's (nope, never had one of those before) EKG's, and even brought in some kind of portable x-ray gizzy. brought it to me so they didn't have to take me to it. Never seen anything like that before, either, probably because I avoid doctors like the plague, so I'm not up on current technology.

Turned out my heart was just flirting with A-fib. It would jump into it for a short time, then right back out like it knew it was making a mistake or something. More out than in, but when it was in, it just felt to me like an adrenaline rush, nothing new to me, but the experience of it without any rhyme or reason WAS a new thing.

Making a long story short, they just kept me under observation for about 6 hours, checked my labs and electrolyte levels and everything looked ok, they couldn't figure out a reason for it, either. So they put me on Eliquis to keep my blood thin and metoprolol to regulate my heartbeat and cut me loose. I reckon I'll be on those drugs the rest of my days, or at least as long as they are available to me.

Scared the crap out of me for a minute, to the point that I was considering writing a letter to my son to be read only after I croaked, if that event was imminent. But it's ok now, I've calmed my silly ass down about it. I just move a little slower, and if my heart starts doing a tango, I can usually get it to stop immediately by, of all things, just taking a deep breath. I've also done my homework since then to find out what I need out of the woods if the prescribed drugs ever become unavailable to me.  I went up into the woods about a month and a half ago and got some ginseng berries while they were showing, and brought them back to plant in shady spots in my yard for safekeeping from poachers. That was when I discovered that I have several thousand dollars worth of ginseng all around me. I left it all there in the ground for a rainy day, in case I need it later, and just brought back the berries to plant. It's a replacement for the Eliquis, but takes a year and a half to even sprout, and about 3 to 5 more years before it's big enough to harvest.

Hang in there and be well - You'll be fine, 'cause I'm convinced you're tougher than I am!

.

Darn!  Looks like we have something else in common!

Even the same meds.