Heaven VS Hell! Where does that leave us?

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I have been thinking a lot about the popular beliefs around heaven and hell and can't justify any of it. My line of thinking is a comparison/contrast of the afterlife and our current situation as mortal beings on planet Earth. Let's look at some points of consideration.

If you lived as a good soul, and you pass inspection at the final judgement, once you die, then heaven is where you will spend eternity.

If you are an evil soul, and you don't pass inspection after death, you spend eternity in HELL!

Immediately I can see that regardless of any good or evil acts during my mortal existence that I will have eternal life after death. Where I go is up for debate.

Now, what do we have that we will lose or gain one way or the other?

In my perfect and pure eternal body in my heavenly abode, I will live without hunger, thirst, carnal desires (hopefully not), and other undesirable aspects of human existence. No sickness or disease, no pain, and no death.


Now, in Hell, this is the eternal abode of evil and un-repenting souls who will suffer unspeakable pain forever as a punishment for being evil.

Heaven, is perfect, pleasant, hope fulfilled, and eternal. Hell, is painful, foul, entirely hopeless, and also eternal.

Mortal existence is imperfect, destructive, hopeless (without God), and temporary.

I don't see much difference between our temporary mortal existence and the Hell we are threatened with unless we obey a God that seems far more evil than his fallen angels. I seriously believe if there is a heaven world in the afterlife as described, then this mortal life is Hell on Earth as far as I am concerned.

I find myself having real sympathy for the Devil as the adversary of a God that would believe it was his blessing to create such a dark and evil universe and make us struggle here as mortals, only to die and be judged like this. Even a heavenly afterlife seems evil when I really think about this deal.

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Of course, if I go with my other concept, of creation as a heat engine or mere entertainment as a fireworks display for God to be amused, then I really have respect for Satan and his rebellion against God.

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I could be a real Satanist if those political posers and their Baphomet bullshit wasn't the accepted norm now-a-days. It is so true that evil grows with ignorance.

Bottom line, humanity is extremely fucked up and the dark and evil universe created us with natural selection to make sure we ended up this way.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I do want to add that even though I went through all the evil shit and put God on his head and the Devil on top, I must admit that all life, human down to single-cell life, has this attitude of what is right or good and what is wrong and bad. It is an instinct that all life is born with and I must weave that into my theory. There must be a reason that we are born into this living hell, it seems that we are born with an instinct of what is right and wrong, so I must assume that God understands this, or he doesn't. Or we may be the fallen angels that are doomed to God's punishment.

[EndtheMadnessNow]

We go to purgatory?



Your line of thinking is more or less in-line with mine.

I've also entertained the idea that regardless how good or evil you are on planet Earth you go to nullibicity (the state or quality of being nowhere or non-existence) for indeterminate period of time and eventually come back (re-birth) to Earth as a human, but all your memories are wiped clean. This cycle repeats until ad infinitum or until you learn the true meaning of life on an esoteric level, and then you ascend to who knows where. So, either way we are immortal.

Sounds crazy I know and perhaps leaning toward reincarnation but so far nobody has been able to disprove or prove it, yet. If your life has been nothing but hell or certain hell years of it that may be part of the learning process. Some would call it trauma induced learning until you finally get it AND understand it. The so-called cycle of 'life' just may be much more profound than we can imagine.

Mos maiorum: "the way the ancestors did it" - which may keep us here for eternity or free us depending on one's logic & reasoning.

"For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17

"In retrospect, we can glean that the essence of the Enochian dialogues centred upon a coming apocalypse, which Dee’s angels referred to as ‘the Harvest’. Dee and Kelley succeeded in manifesting the spiritual beings they had summoned, and what followed appears to have been the process of opening the gates to another dimension and obtaining the keys required to activate the angels’ agenda, an apocalypse of the mind – a poisoning of man’s spiritual essence and the rapid degeneration of society."

— John Dee & the Enochian Apocalypse


I've also wondered why we humans were put here on this planet, literally out in a space desert on the far edge of the galaxy with absolutely no life. Looking toward the center of the galaxy there is a tremendous amount of light. Seems like that's where all the action is and maybe that is where we go.

Lucifer, the light bringer.
Satan represents the dark side of the Force.
Lucifer represents the light side of the Force.
Both sides are bad?
"Non Serviam" – I will not serve!






Now, how in the hell do I get off that wheel?

As I'm sure you're aware this philosophy topic can drive one mad! And many have gone stark raving mad. So, I keep good 'ole humor on a short leash.


"Will this wonderful civilization of to-day perish? Yes, everything perishes. Will it rise and exist again? It will -- for nothing can happen that will not happen again. And again, and still again, forever. It took more than eight centuries to prepare this civilization -- then it suddenly began to grow, and in less than a century it is becoming a bewildering marvel. In time, it will pass away and be forgotten. Ages will elapse, then it will come again; and not incomplete, but complete; not an invention nor discovery nor any smallest detail of it missing. Again it will pass away, and after ages will rise and dazzle the world again as it dazzles it now -- perfect in all its parts once more. It is the Law of Periodical Repetition."

— Mark Twain, "Passage from a Lecture" published in Fables of Man

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Reincarnation, I hadn't even gotten into that one yet. I'll quote my late Grandmother here, 

"This life, one more, and then what?"

I have entertained reincarnation, and that would be just as bad as eternal damnation. If true, think of all the fools who believe they are getting out of the mess they made here during their selfish lives when they die. 

Also, I can't understand how learning anything while alive can apply to an afterlife. It has to be apples and oranges here. Heaven, Hell, and mortal existence are all very different conditions.

As I'm sure you're aware this philosophy topic can drive one mad! And many have gone stark raving mad. So, I keep good 'ole humor on a short leash.

Yes, it is dangerous from a number of perspectives and madness is a likely result. I'm foolish for exploring this topic but it relates to a creative writing project I'm working on. The big climax is a conversation with Asmodeus, so I will continue on.

ETA: As a side note, I heat my home with a small wood stove I need to tend to constantly. So the idea of Hell as a place of fire seems really comforting in the freezing cold weather of a Michigan winter.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I had mentioned the idea that we are born innocent and have instinctual knowledge of right and wrong. If I were to take this evil creation theory to its logical conclusion, then that idea is wrong. As a created being, I must have been created as evil, therefore, my sinful nature is, natural. Why do we pretend that our perception of good and evil, just and unjust, is how it is meant to be?

It keeps coming back to being social animals and encouraging certain behaviors that benefit our survival as a species. This relates to the selfish gene theory, survival and procreation by any means necessary to perpetuate the species. This is our main struggle as mortal beings in this reality.

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In another forum,  I made the statement that I believed the emotion of love was a dirty trick nature plays on humanity to make us procreate. A member suggested I was equating love with the sex drive alone, so I countered with this comment.

Certainly love in all its forms isn't the sex drive. However, it is a survival trait for social animals like humans and aids in the perpetuation of the species. It is similar to how humans react to cute little helpless infants, unless you're a cannibal.

Maybe I was a little over the top with the cannibal part.

[DISRAELI]

The Bible actually gives us no details at all about heaven and hell, so it isn't possible to say anything specific about them.

Jesus says only that some people will be present at "the heavenly banquet", and others won't.
Paul says to the Thessalonians "So we shall be evermore with the Lord", but others evidently won't be.
That is all.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

The Bible actually gives us no details at all about heaven and hell, so it isn't possible to say anything specific about them.

Jesus says only that some people will be present at "the heavenly banquet", and others won't.
Paul says to the Thessalonians "So we shall be evermore with the Lord", but others evidently won't be.
That is all.

I was going to look into the actual Bible verses that describe heaven and hell next. There is some confusion about hell, the lake of fire, and the pit. I have to go through and see what I can determine about those, but I suspect they are three different things. 

I'll get back in a little bit, thanks.

Just cursory, but the lake of fire most fits the popular description of hell and the bottomless pit more of a holding cell. However, many references to hell seem to refer to a condition rather than a place as in these others.

I find this verse in Peter to be interesting . . .

2 Peter 2:4 KJV

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

So, fallen angels were cast "down to" hell before Peter said this, and Revelation states that Satan and the fallen angels were cast down to Earth, something I believed happened seven years ago. So, hell is Earth in this statement, something I found implied in a couple other verses. This verse does seem to equate hell and the bottomless pit that will keep the devil in chains. It may not be accurate in its translation.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I'm basically talking about Nihilism in relation to Western morals. I get the impression most people don't understand the concept of Nihilism.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I haven't had much activity on this forum for this thread. The other two forums are rolling right along.

There aren't too many people who are open-minded enough to try and understand what I am doing. Admittedly this subject is troll-worthy and will get a lot of folks riled up for what they may see as an attack on their most personally held beliefs about reality. Others may believe I've finally gone off the deep end, while others may believe I am demonically influenced and will avoid me at all costs.

I must say, that when people accept some belief system related to the human condition, a faith-based belief system particularly, they will stick to their guns and and give you both barrels full of propaganda and apologetics. Often they will have a mish-mash of beliefs that run the full gambit and no amount of clearly stated facts or solid arguments will sway them. Quite often these type continue to repeat their talking points or retreat with excuses like, "I can see you have made your mind up" so they don't have to wander outside of their boxes.

Also, people will stray away from this topic and offer almost anything to counter it. I was begging for scripture from any source and got a little of that, but what I wanted is to approach this from the Biblical perspective primarily. I also wanted some cold hard "scientific" facts and solid logical arguments based on past work in this area. In a way, I'd like to pit the two against each other.

So few can understand this and sadly, I am sure if I posted that last comment above on the other two forums no one wouldn't get it even then. I am thinking more and more that no matter how clearly and completely I explain myself in proper English sentences, even with source links and quotes, that people only see what they want to see and have a kind of selective reading comprehension due to personal biases.

ETA: It may be a kind of ADD where people's attention span and comprehension are limited, likely due to social media and on demand content.

[Ninurta]

I haven't had much activity on this forum for this thread. The other two forums are rolling right along.

...

I must confess to an inability to grasp what it is  you are trying to get at in this thread. Therefore, lacking an ability to intelligently converse on the matter, I've remained silent as I followed it.

As nearly as I can tell, "hell" is simply the termination of existence, so, really, an eternity of nothingness. A big, black, nothingness, of which the individual will not even be aware - if your existence has been terminated, how can you even be aware that you no longer exist?. That notion terrifies some people, but it is what it is, terror or not.

That seems to be in line with the original Hebrew concept of "Sheol", as well as satisfying Biblical verses such as "the dead know nothing" that were in vogue before the Catholics started re-inventing Satan to bring him into line with more southern European extra-biblical concepts of "goat-demons"  (ex. "Baphomet") in an attempt to scare the masses over to their way of thinking.

It also lines up - much to his chagrin I'm sure - with a definition of "hell" given to me by a preacher many years ago as "the eternal separation from God". I'm sure non-existence was not what he had in mind with that definition, but it fits.

So, to my way of thinking, "heaven" and "hell" are just the alternatives of "something" to "nothing" in an afterlife... or after-not-life, as the case may be. The rest of the philosophizing just loses me. After all, I'm a simple man with a simple mind. Too much thinking produces a scent like burning clutch in my vicinity.

.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Actually Ninurta, I have been going over the Biblical passages that contain descriptions of heaven and hell, and separation from God is a part of it or also what is called the second death, or in other words, complete non-existence.

I'm not searching for truth or any answers to deep philosophical questions, just proposing a conspiracy theory of sorts, that we have the whole God and the devil relationship backward. What God said was "good" back in the beginning was propaganda as was the devil's motivations as told in the popular story.

I like to think of it as being the ultimate Devil's advocate. Also, the way everything gets politicized these days, why the hell not?

[Ninurta]

Well, I suppose that would make the question of "good" and "evil", and so by extension, "heaven" and "hell", relative things - relative to whomever or whatever one allowed to define those things for him.

A Christian might say "God defines good and evil, heaven and hell. Whatever God says, goes." A Satanist might see things precisely opposed to that, since they tend to be more in opposition to Christianity than any actual celebration of Satan. An Atheist, on the other hand, might define those concepts to mean whatever promotes his own self-interest is "good", and whatever opposes his interests to be "evil", but to an Atheist, the question of heaven and hell would be moot.

So, I suppose in the final analysis, whomever one is cheer-leading for gets to define good and evil, heaven and hell, in that person's eyes.

One man's meat is another man's poison.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

But do mortal men actually get to call the shots like that as regards good and evil, heaven and hell? Or does whomever wins the Final Battle get to define those concepts as if they were right all along, because "history is written by the victors"?

Another way to look at it would be to say "if no one is right, then everyone is wrong" - so everyone would have to choose a "side", either consciously or not - and live (or die) by the results of that decision.

We also must keep in mind that Satan or "The Devil" was originally conceived of as a far different creature than the one invented by the Catholics and spread throughout Christianity by them - tainting Christianity one might say.

Originally it seems, he was perceived as merely a subservient adversary. For example, in the Garden of Eden, or as expressed in Job as an accusatory prosecuting attorney. A subservient "foil" to God, whose function was to showcase God's mercy... or vengeance. He was not the all-powerful, un-human entity the Catholics created and promoted. It seems that all "good" needs a counter-point to exist. Yin to yang. For of what use is trying to understand the concept of "good" without an opposing concept of "evil" to bring it forth? What is "light" if there is no "dark" to contrast it against? What point is there in a "heaven" if there is no "hell" to compare it against? Would all of those thing not be simply "what is" without a counterpoint to contrast it against and define it, and never even a consideration?


.

[FlickerOfLight]

I will give a different view for this, as always.



One theory is, This life and planet is a karma trap. We have all lived many many different lives, on many different planets, in many different forms. This planet is one of our last stops on our journey back home to the Source of all creation (God). We are here to learn, and collect information to be brought back to the source, eventually. All of this information will be gathered back to the source, and with all this data God will create the new heaven and the new earth.

Consider all of this a beta test run for God's creation. 

In the beginning God created the Light and the dark.

This Light is the Holy Spirit, and the dark is the "devil" (blanket word). In reality the darkness is the destructive force necessary to create all of this. God created all of this through that destruction, and it was all set into motion through it. The Light (which is love in essence) is what brought it all together and formed all of it. 

When God said let there be light, and there was that huge initial explosion of light and violence, like sand on the seashore all these tiny little specs of light went traveling across space and time; blasting through the darkness. We (those of us that are, in fact, light) are all these tiny little specs of light that originated from that Source and from that light. Those that are light will all return to that source eventually, and with all the information we have collected, from all these different angles and perspectives and personalities and experiences. All to be brought together so that the next creation will be perfect in every way. 


This creation was "good."

The next one will be "perfect."



There is an abyss. It is reserved for all the destructive forces that were created to be the balance of darkness to the light. Everything we know as evil will be gone, cast into that pit. Fallen angels, demons, the devil, all darkness and evil spirit will be exterminated, and will no longer be necessary for the new creation. Their demise is one of total elimination from existence. There "hell" is the here and now; the waiting before that final judgement for all the wickedness the children of the dark have caused. The eternal punishment is their separation from God and not being able to return. So, they have declared war.

While we are here we can have "heaven" on earth. When we operate in things like truth and honesty, love and compassion then we have less problems with other people, and when we live our lives where we are good to the people around us, and we aren't building up tons of bad karma then we live peaceful joyful lives.

If we live our lives trying to manipulate, abuse and use other people, steal kill and destroy, and we go around building up all this bad karma then we live shitty lives, that are "hell."

We make the choice.

The church invented this construct of throwing people into hell if they didn't believe what they told you to believe. The thought of burning for all of eternity is a pretty good consequence to control people with. An "everlasting punishment. " Control through fear.

This planet is also a prison for all these evil forces. We are meant to spend time with them, to learn about evil.  They teach it to us. When we accept any of there evil we get trapped on this karma wheel here, and are stuck in reincarnation until we balance that karma out. 

Jesus showed us the Way to break that karma. It is in his teachings, and is also in other ancient teachings from all around the world.

God did not create us to toss us unto hell for all of eternity. We are here to live different lives with different experiences to teach us all the ins and outs of good and evil.

The main lesson here is what it is like to live in a "material world," and how all of this want and desire for more can trap us in selfish blindness. We are a collective, and are all one big family in a sense. The light and dak are two sides from the same coin. We share this space and this time with that which is wicked and evil, and its the people around you, some are people who are "demons" in actuality. Evil spirits reincarnated over and over simply to fuck as much up as they can. There purpose is to make us suffer, so that we learn the consequences, and effects of all this "sin."  We are meant to learn love in spite of all this evil; to find our way back to the light as we travel through this darkness, and temporary separation from God.

They know their fate is that abyss and that your fate is to return home; a place they long to get back to, but can never return to. This is why they hate us.

Side note: the ufos may be them trying to get off of this planet and back home.

The truth has been buried. All for material gain. Think about how the whole world is chasing money...

It's a trap.

But one that can be escaped.
Christ (love).

But this also means you can get trapped here with all that evil. That is their desire. To trap us here with them for as long as possible. This creation was given a time clock to run its course for so long, and so There is only so much time to get off of this karma wheel, and if someone's spirit is stuck on it when time runs out, then yes, you will be erased from existence because your spirit was too corrupt to pass onto the next existence (the new heaven and earth). Some of us were created to return, and some weren't. I realize I've stated that we will all return home, but unfortunately I don't believe this to be true. I believe some of us will be trapped here because we were fooled for so long by these evil entities that we just never learned how to love. I mentioned that this world is a school to teach us good and evil. What we are supposed to learn by the end of it is how to love. Not just ourselves, but each other. Those who have learned how to love, unconditionally will pass on to the next existence. Those that don't, will still of had the opportunity at life, and to be a part of this creation, but when all of this is destroyed there essence will be destroyed with it, and they will cease to exist for the rest of eternity.

There are many things going on at once here. We have light and dark mingling together. The light is collecting ;information, and the darkness is providing the necessary lessons to live an eternity free from their shenanigans. I think of this karma wheel as a soul trap that these evil forces have devised to trap peoples souls from escaping this dimension. 

The formula to escape is simple:
Forgive.
Repent.
Love.
Go home.

[Bally002]

Yeah, I see that.

The Lord and I converse several times each day.  I say I'm sorry and ask for forgiveness.  If this isn't good enough then I accept my penance after death.

I do wish to be reunited with my family.  I'm pretty sure I've learnt my lesson.

I have read through your thread several times.  I can only answer in this way.

My kind regards,

Bally)

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Excellent stuff Flicker. I like your vision of existence.

The thing is, why all this? If God can create a multi-verse and keep everything in perfect balance, why must things be so difficult for us created beings? Why are these lessons necessary? Why is our experience so intense and needed to teach us anything?

Tough love? Maybe we did something really bad to deserve this torture. Or maybe God and the angelic host think of humans like we think of plants and animals, produce and livestock in particular. The only difference is we are just smart enough to realize more than our existence and that something else is going on.

If God and the heaven world are perfect and the opposite of our mortal existence, it sure makes life on Earth look like a living hell to me, just temporary (maybe). With no real proof of life after death and the existence of an eternal soul, we are just meat-puppets or even less than that, if looked at from a materialistic perspective only.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

This exercise in trolling, er, I mean creative writing, has been a real learning experience for me. I have found it a great way to create apologetics for any subject. You toss things out there and then use the responses to form counter-arguments.

I have also been getting pretty good at dealing with these contrarian-style trolls and their rebuttals. I've found that as I go along and build up a set of rebuttals to my own points, I can then develop ready-made responses beforehand.

Things to think about, but not entirely what I want from this exercise. It is a good start and a productive method for this application, not so much for other creative methods. It is something that I am beginning to see as similar to how AI develops and responds. This is a whole other area to ponder.

ETA: I have to admit that I have been enjoying burning these people who are merely parroting talking points. They haven't given their position much thought other than what they have picked up along the way. I have even gotten pretty good at agreeing with them while politely insulting their intelligence and setting them up for my next move. It is hard to get that final burn in though, that final word that shuts these clueless idiots down.

[FlickerOfLight]

Lets consider this for a moment. The devil was cast down to earth as a punishment. All of his followers fell here with him, and were trapped here. The jin, or demons, were also trapped here, and could not escape. These beings couldnt just "fly home." They had "lost their wings," so to speak. As we move further into time of creation, and man and woman are now roaming the earth. Angels take notice of our ladies, and how beautiful, and cool to hang out with they are, and so these angels covet our women. They teach them all matter of magic war vanity and greed, and have babies with them. Now, we have nephilim in the world, and their half human halg angel powers and stature. They take over the world. Then the flood. All the while Satan (who actually does have many names, and there seems to be Him and four helpers, or sub-satans (read the gospel pf Jude), is the ruler of all of this; and seems to have a structure to his rulership over this world. This rulership is time limited. 

All the while we were put in the same place the most powerful angel (the devil) stuck here as punishment with us, with all these other megapowerful "sub-gods" and us we little powerless humans. Where, supposedly we only get one life to prove ourselves for all of eternity. 

Only a dick god would create that.


God isnt a dick.

Man is...

We get more than this to learn and grow as a spirit. 20 30 40 50 and even if you live to be a 100 years old, that is not enough time for a spirit to be tested and "purified" enough to move onto the new world and new heaven.

I believe our souls get 1000 years to live here on this planet. To truly see what evil is, and the consequences thereof.


To know these mysteries is impossible. Know one knows the mind of God. And, anyone who claims to know the absolute truth is a liar. None of us know the absolute, exact truth as to why we are here, and what the meaning of all of this is.

My cousin died at 32 years old from cancer. Would a loving God only give him 32 years to determine if he is worthy of existense for all of eternity?

No... The Love I have come to find, my God would give him more time to learn and grow before deciding his fate of whether or not He wa going to toss my cousin in an eternal fire.

That sounds exactly* like something a narcasisstic mind would conjur up, just to control you with.

Thats the lie.

God is good.
Satan bad.



Whenever I first started Biblical studies and Ministry school the very first class I took was how to debate/argue/discuss. One of the first lessons was how to spot logical fallacies, and the second was lesson was on how to argue them in a constructive manner. As long as my emotions aren't a factor I am very good at arguing constructively, and even better at unraveling manipulated ideas.

Ive used these sites to practice, and hone these skills. Ive used this site in particular to try and master my emotions in arguments.

It was a bumpy ride, but worth it, for me.

-cheers-

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Well, you summarized that very well, except the following . . .

"Only a dick god would create that.
God isnt a dick.
Man is..."

So, regardless of God and what was created, man is somehow to blame, therefore essentially we deserve what we get. Of course, I believe that you are talking about how man had made up these stories to control others and these stories became our religious faith. So man is the dick in all this and God doesn't catch any of the blame as none of that is part of his creation.

Did I understand you correctly?

[FlickerOfLight]

Well, you summarized that very well, except the following . . .

"Only a dick god would create that.
God isnt a dick.
Man is..."

So, regardless of God and what was created, man is somehow to blame, therefore essentially we deserve what we get. Of course, I believe that you are talking about how man had made up these stories to control others and these stories became our religious faith. So man is the dick in all this and God doesn't catch any of the blame as none of that is part of his creation.

Did I understand you correctly?

I didn't express that well enough. 

What I meant by that was, there are people in this world that want to control us by fear. The ultimate fear is an unseen fear that, "if you don't do what I say you're going to burn in hell" is a great way to scare people. 

Man/woman/mankind has evil in its own heart, brought to us by the evil that we are taught. We just continue to pass it along.

Sure, God is to "blame," but only if you're looking for 'someone to blame.'
Sure, it's His creation.
It got messed up, due to evil forces.

He corrected this karma wheel curse by coming down here and dying in the flesh, and by going through the same suffering as us, so that he himself could experience what we experience. Up to, and including dying on the cross in that way, as an innocent spirit (A Holy Spirit).

He showed us, himself, how to break this curse.

A question...

Would you still love a God that put you through hard times and suffering to break you free from this curse? If you knew that this suffering, this experience is absolutely necessary to move onto the next level (the new heaven and earth), would you still see that this is done because of benevolence, or could you see that all of this is done through love?

Do we not discipline pur children to teach them how to act and treat others?

We have forgotten that discipline is important. Discipline is love, in my eyes.

This is that, either way. A lesson. We are being taught, and the good stuff we learn is in the hard lessons of life. 

We are eternal beings. Eternal lessons take longer than 100 years, or less. I would think.

But, who knows. This is what lines up in my mind heart and soul. Yes, there is pure evil here. Things and beings and people who are completely void of love. And we are in a time and place where love is disappearing. 

When it dissappears from this world, it will be game over for this existence. 

That's my interpretation from all the scriptures.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Flicker, I not going to post the following without letting you know first that this is merely an exercise.

What I meant by that was, there are people in this world that want to control us by fear. The ultimate fear is an unseen fear that, "if you don't do what I say you're going to burn in hell" is a great way to scare people. 

Yeah, an eternity in Hell sure sounds scary to me and fear is a great control method.

Man/woman/mankind has evil in its own heart, brought to us by the evil that we are taught. We just continue to pass it along.

Sure, but "evil we are taught", that part seems questionable when it is a dog eat dog world and humans are on top of that food chain. Then there is this "born in sin" idea that we will never get out of without the blood of Christ. The original sin is a hard one to justify if God was so loving and understanding, esp. when God blessed us and saw that it was "good" in his eyes. We have a sinful nature to be sure, but I believe that you could use the phrase our base nature or true nature in place of sinful nature in a sentence.

Sure, God is to "blame," but only if you're looking for 'someone to blame.'
Sure, it's His creation.
It got messed up, due to evil forces.

Then admittedly the forces of nature are evil forces, or at least those natural forces that created our inborn sinful nature are. Who created and controls all the forces of nature?

Would you still love a God that put you through hard times and suffering to break you free from this curse? If you knew that this suffering, this experience is absolutely necessary to move onto the next level (the new heaven and earth), would you still see that this is done because of benevolence, or could you see that all of this is done through love?

Suppose for a moment that God never allowed such a curse to befall his beloved children? What if suffering is not necessary to grow, learn and evolve? If either of these are valid possibilities than how could I possibly see my suffering as loving and benevolent? It sounds like a controlling, sadistic and abusive relationship as described.

We are eternal beings. Eternal lessons take longer than 100 years, or less. I would think.

If we are eternal beings and not mere mortals who are born to die.





I'm spent. There you go, have at it.

Wait, we have the Eucharist, the cannibalistic consumption of Christ's flesh and blood, and his crucifixion with the whipping and all. Man that is some fetish. Not sure why I thought of all that.