A discussion on Love

[FlickerOfLight]

I've authored a thread where we discussed things of a very dark nature. We took that discussion deep down the rabbit hole of thought, and it was a hard conversation, but one that I feel was necessary. But, I'd like to flip the script completely, and show the Light that is inside of me, that has guided me through this dark world. A world that is becoming more and more void of love. Soon, it will be in utter darkness, and things like love and compassion will be forgotten completely. 

First off I'd like to say, that loving people who agree with you is too easy. Loving the people in your church is too easy, even if you don't like them. Loving your family is required. 

Loving your enemies takes Christ like strength.

I've been wanting to present this especially to my elders. I've heard a particular rhetoric for far too long, and I'd like to address it. This discussion is mostly for those of Christian faith, but love does not require a religious order, so feel free to jump in.

I'd like to give a couple of examples to lay out my thoughts for you all. I'd like to share a couple of examples of what Loving, or not loving, your enemies might look like.

Imagine I'm an elderly man, living with my elderly wife. We have succeeded in life, have great memories, have built up a nice home and family, and most importantly have built up our faith in Christ God Almighty. Basically we are two elderly folks who have lived a good life, and know our souls are going to heaven when we die.

Me and my wife are sitting on the couch, watching Matlock, when there's a loud bang. A young man has just entered my home, and is going to rob us of our money and jewelry. I have many weapons in the home, so I have a choice.

I could kill this dude, or I can try and save him, or show him mercy. 

Hate will kill this young man in a heart beat. It would be easy to pull that trigger. I an well within my rights. But, am I prepared to take the life of a young, possibly misguided soul, over a few thousands bucks, or so?

If he kills me and my wife we go to heaven to be in paradise. 

If I kill this young man, who is just a teenager who got mixed up in drugs, and has never had the opportunity to "know Christ," If I kill him now, he will probably go to hell (according to my religion).

Or, should I show him mercy, even to the point of "sacrificing my own life" to either try and reach this young man, or simply show him the mercy he may of never received from anyone else before; and maybe just maybe that act of mercy will resonate with that young man,and thus lead him to his own Salvation in the Lord?

Which act shows "love?"

Second example
I'm a middle aged man who is divorced. I get news that my x-father in law is going into surgery and could possibly die.

My X father in law has done nothing but hate me, demonize me, try and kill me, or have me arrested. All this man has done is spew evil and hate and judgement at me.

But, I have Christ in my heart...

Should I be happy that an "enemy" is going to die, and boast in this knowledge and "praise God" that an evil man is about to die?

Or...do I have compassion on my enemy, and pray with the same love, and hope that I would pray in, if it were my own child....or, my own life?

Which of these show love, and which of these show a void of love?

Anything void of love is "evil."

I've learned the answers to these questions. When we take out compassion for others, even our enemies, we are stepping outside of love; outside of The Holy Spirit, and we are stepping into the flesh, and darkness, evil spirits, demonic thoughts and actions.

They do no know how to love, or have compassion, or have mercy, and most of all----they don't know how to show Grace.

Evil will always have a "good excuse" as to why they can kill, steal, or destroy."

There is a monumental difference here. We are either guided by love for others, or we aren't. 

There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as "lukewarm love."

Thank you, Rogue-Nation.

[Ninurta]

The first example mystifies me. I cannot comprehend why anyone would bother going to the expense and trouble of having weapons in their house if they were unwilling to use them to defend their family against evil. So, I can't really respond to that example. I simply do not understand the premise of it.

The second is easier. The man is an "ex" father in law. He is no longer any sort of threat. Why would anyone NOT pray for his recovery and health? In order to be logically considered an "enemy", would a person not have to be actively and currently working to do one harm?

I personally have a tendency to pray for a long, long life for any former enemies, regardless of their current condition. A VERY long life, so that some day they may come to understand the harm they have done to others, and either make amends of at least experience the contrition that might lead to their salvation.

.

[FlickerOfLight]

The first example mystifies me. I cannot comprehend why anyone would bother going to the expense and trouble of having weapons in their house if they were unwilling to use them to defend their family against evil. So, I can't really respond to that example. I simply do not understand the premise of it.

The second is easier. The man is an "ex" father in law. He is no longer any sort of threat. Why would anyone NOT pray for his recovery and health? In order to be logically considered an "enemy", would a person not have to be actively and currently working to do one harm?

I personally have a tendency to pray for a long, long life for any former enemies, regardless of their current condition. A VERY long life, so that some day they may come to understand the harm they have done to others, and either make amends of at least experience the contrition that might lead to their salvation.

.

For hunting, and maybe they just like guns. A hobby. Maybe they like to shoot, but don't want to take a life.

Basically, since you have the guns you should use them to take a life?
Remember, this person could possibly find the Lord later down the road.

Should a Christian take a life to preserve their own life. Even if you're "saved" and they're not? What if you were just going to be robbed of possessions?Would that matter, when it came to how much mercy or love that would be given?

Does love end, when you're being robbed? Is it preservation of your own life over there's? Are our "treasures" not in heaven? Youd give mercy to one evil man, but not another? How do you choose? Is love biased to the situation?

[SomeJackleg]

Which of these show love, and which of these show a void of love?

Anything void of love is "evil."

I've learned the answers to these questions. When we take out compassion for others, even our enemies, we are stepping outside of love; outside of The Holy Spirit, and we are stepping into the flesh, and darkness, evil spirits, demonic thoughts and actions.

They do no know how to love, or have compassion, or have mercy, and most of all----they don't know how to show Grace.

Evil will always have a "good excuse" as to why they can kill, steal, or destroy."

There is a monumental difference here. We are either guided by love for others, or we aren't. 

There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as "lukewarm love."

Thank you, Rogue-Nation.

it's true that Jesus and God are all about mercy, peace, and love but they were far from using violence, and even said it was alright and Jesus himself even resorted to violence at least once when he fashioned a whip, and is going to be the leader of the last great act of violence defending the kingdom of the God.

Jesus said turn the other cheek, you notice he didn't say what you should do if they slap that one.

a couple of passages off the top of my head

Luke 11: 21-22 New American Standard

21 When [b]a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are [c]secure. 22 But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, that man takes away his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.

Luke 22: 36-38 New American Standard


36 And He said to them, “But now, [a]whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and [b]whoever has no sword is to sell his [c]cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was counted with wrongdoers’; for that which refers to Me has its [d]fulfillment.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Proverbs 24:10-11 New American Standard

10 If you show yourself lacking courage on the day of distress, Your strength is meager.
11 Rescue those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to the slaughter, Oh hold them back!

Exodus 22:2-4 New American Standard

2 [a]If the thief is [b]caught while [c]breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no guilt for bloodshed on his account. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there will be guilt for bloodshed on his account—A thief shall certainly make restitution; if he owns nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If what he stole is actually found alive in his [d]possession, whether an ox or a donkey or a sheep, he shall pay double.

the trick is to know when the to use violence and when not to.

[FlickerOfLight]

Which of these show love, and which of these show a void of love?

Anything void of love is "evil."

I've learned the answers to these questions. When we take out compassion for others, even our enemies, we are stepping outside of love; outside of The Holy Spirit, and we are stepping into the flesh, and darkness, evil spirits, demonic thoughts and actions.

They do no know how to love, or have compassion, or have mercy, and most of all----they don't know how to show Grace.

Evil will always have a "good excuse" as to why they can kill, steal, or destroy."

There is a monumental difference here. We are either guided by love for others, or we aren't. 

There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as "lukewarm love."

Thank you, Rogue-Nation.

it's true that Jesus and God are all about mercy, peace, and love but they were far from using violence, and even said it was alright and Jesus himself even resorted to violence at least once when he fashioned a whip, and is going to be the leader of the last great act of violence defending the kingdom of the God.

Jesus said turn the other cheek, you notice he didn't say what you should do if they slap that one.

a couple of passages off the top of my head

Luke 11: 21-22 New American Standard

21 When [b]a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are [c]secure. 22 But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, that man takes away his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.

Luke 22: 36-38 New American Standard


36 And He said to them, “But now, [a]whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and [b]whoever has no sword is to sell his [c]cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was counted with wrongdoers’; for that which refers to Me has its [d]fulfillment.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Proverbs 24:10-11 New American Standard

10 If you show yourself lacking courage on the day of distress, Your strength is meager.
11 Rescue those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to the slaughter, Oh hold them back!

Exodus 22:2-4 New American Standard

2 [a]If the thief is [b]caught while [c]breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no guilt for bloodshed on his account. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there will be guilt for bloodshed on his account—A thief shall certainly make restitution; if he owns nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If what he stole is actually found alive in his [d]possession, whether an ox or a donkey or a sheep, he shall pay double.

the trick is to know when the to use violence and when not to.

I'd have to disagree on what those verses actually meant. So I keep them out, so we don't get caught up in arguing interpretations. 
I respect your view tho.

I offer a thought. 
First, Jesus did a little whipping, not take a life.
Two men hung next to Jesus when he was hanging on a cross. Bother of them thieves/robbers. One of them received salvation moments before his death. 
Who are we to judge? Who are we ro take that opportunity?

We're not even supposed to store up treasures for ourselves on this earth. Treasure that can rust, moths can eat, or thieves can steal....we are not to store things like this up.
Yet we negate love when we've stored these things up, which we were warned not to do. We have mansions in heaven waiting. Why are these bricks and sticks of more value than any of God's creation? Most especially when we aren't to worship false idols, like bricks and sticks. We have achieved victory. We die we got straight to a paradise and away from this world, and all it's possessions.

Yet we'd take a life to preserve a few more years, or some stuff?

Makes absolutely, positively no sense. 

Stephen the 13th apostle, who became the 12th. Another innocent man, dragged out for "doing good" to be stoned. Now...he could've chosen to defend himself, pick up a stone and take out as many as he could to try and save himself....but no. He asked God to forgive them.
Are we not disciples, of our Lord Jesus? Did he not say, "Vengeance is mine?"

We've negated love for the sake of saving a life that doesn't need saving for a life that does....or even worse....stuff.

This needs to be reexamine.

Love does not end when being robbed. We've gotten lost in cowboy TV and the American dream, Rogue-Nation. 

I don't carry a weapon. And I ha e enemies (can't ya tell at how good I am at pissing people off, yet?), but not one of them has ever laid a finger on me. And I've had many threats and attempts on my life.

Not one hair on my head has ever been touched. I've had a bike stolen when I was a kid? Should I have shot someone for that?

Logic is failing here.

Love won't. Add it in. Mercy over violence. This is our calling. 

Love others, as you love yourself. 

If your sealed by God, and your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life, then why on earth are we so ready to destroy a life, over possessions?

I meditated on that for years.

Love will abide. Our home is in heaven. Nothing we posses here should matter to us. Especially when it comes down to things over life.

People will take the mark of the beast to keep their stuff.

Drug dealers and gang bangers will shoot you dead if you try and rob them.

Aren't we supposed to be different?

It's a thought to chew on, at least.

[Ninurta]

I'd have to disagree on what those verses actually meant. So I keep them out, so we don't get caught up in arguing interpretations. 
I respect your view tho.

Which is why Christianity no longer exists. "Interpretations". There are so many that now there is no Christianity, There is rather myriad Christianities, about 400 different "versions" or "sects", each at the others' throats, preaching them into hell because they "ain't believin' right".

I'm not going to argue interpretations, either. I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and on Judgement Day, God will let me know if it was the right thing to do or not. I'll take God at his word and assume that he meant what he said, rather than requiring me to "interpret" it.

That's what Samson did. I wonder how it turned out for him? That's what David did. I wonder how it turned out for him? I reckon I'm no better than them in the grand scheme of things.

.

[FlickerOfLight]

I'd have to disagree on what those verses actually meant. So I keep them out, so we don't get caught up in arguing interpretations. 
I respect your view tho.

Which is why Christianity no longer exists. "Interpretations". There are so many that now there is no Christianity, There is rather myriad Christianities, about 400 different "versions" or "sects", each at the others' throats, preaching them into hell because they "ain't believin' right".

I'm not going to argue interpretations, either. I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and on Judgement Day, God will let me know if it was the right thing to do or not. I'll take God at his word and assume that he meant what he said, rather than requiring me to "interpret" it.

That's what Samson did. I wonder how it turned out for him? That's what David did. I wonder how it turned out for him? I reckon I'm no better than them in the grand scheme of things.

.

Just because I don't argue scriptures doesn't mean that's why Christianity is dead, "brother." (lol. I'm kidding. This seems to be off putting just for asking and seeing it different. If Christianityis dead its because its forgotten love)

Lets dont be Losing that patience and mercy now. Lol

To be honest, this is a question I've been asking since I was a little boy in church hearing about the love and mercy and kindness and forgiveness in Jesus. How I could receive all of that from him. He only asks that I show others this same forgiveness and mercy. 

I didn't see where I was given grace to take life. In any situation. 
Disciples were killed for this message. Not one story of them "fighting back." "Love one another, and you are doing well."

I love the stories of Sampson and David. Two of my favorites. They were before Christ. They were also Israelite, or at least called, by divine intervention by God" to do what they did.

Any divine intervention to take life on the board here?

Me... I've wondered this whole heartedly, and very genuinely, for a very long time.

I'm supposed to look to my elders. So I sked...


I do not see, in any scriptures, or any concept of love, that we have a pass on that.

We were called to mercy.

Tell a short tempered man this, and he thinks he can shoot anyone he judges as "evil."

So, I have always felt this needed to be reexamined by strong Christian minds.

Ever since a little boy, and all throughout my life, I've come back to this question, and even now, my answer is this.


If someone comes in with a gun, and if I even if I had a gun and had the draw on them....I wouldn't fire. I'd see if I can talk, since I had the upper hand. But, say I didn't, or did, or whatever....if they shoot me for my "stuff".....so what.

I'm going to heaven. Because Jesus has and is in my heart. Here I am. Advocating mercy and love over belongings. 

Am I the villain for that?



Heaven sounds better than all of this. And I am in a place where I actually have a lot of hope for the future, and am in a good place again, in life. Very optimistic. No matter what this world offers heaven js better, and none of this is worth taking life for.

I don't fear death. I never have. I've accepted the Lord and his love all of my life. Ive never rejected him, or his word. Heaven---It's going home. My home is not here, and according to the Bible, that, in fact, is the case. This world will be destroyed. I've conquered this life through the forgiveness and mercy of Jesus, as I was originally told. That's never changed. Only grew.

The evil of this world is what created weapons in the first place.

As a man of absolute faith, I feel I am protected by God. If God doesn't want me to be robbed, I won't be. Ever. If God wants to preserve my life, he will. If He wants to take it, he will.

Let his will be done. Not mine.
I walk by faith. 

David himself even said, that he put his trust in God. Not chariots arrows and swords.

I'm unarmed. I will be till the end. If an enemy gets me, it will be God's will, and my time.

I bet I don't get shot.  I'll put my faith in that. If God wills it, so be it.

I'll fly away....


Let God sort the rest out. I'm Good.

I will love, until then. I'll show the same mercy and forgiveness i was shown. I was shown a lot. Maybe that's why I feel this way.

Plus, I've been close to someone who's taken a life, in the line of duty. On a fleshly level, totally justified. On a spiritual level, not so much. I know this, because I watched the person wrestling with it for a lifetime. On the spiritual level. Even close to his death, he wondered if that young man was saved, and wondered if the opportunity had been lost.

It was a load he carried, but hid, deep down.

This is why this question for this particular scenario. Our stuff over a soul.

If I offend, it's not my intent. 
My intent, is to provoke thought.
My weapon is questions.

[Ninurta]

Just so you understand where I'm coming from here, I'm a Calvinist. All 5 TULIP points. The two that apply here are I - "Iirresistible Grace", and P - "Perseverance of the Saints".

So, if that young fella is destined for Salvation, he won't break into my house while I'm home. He'll either break into someone else's house, or just pass out drunk and skip it for that night. He will be "persevered" until such time as he's ready to accept the Grace he's destined for.

And that Grace WILL come to him, if he's meant for it. He can run, he can hide, but he cannot avoid it forever. God will eventually get him if he's one of God's People. God's will cannot be thwarted forever. We as mortals are emphatically NOT more powerful than God. We cannot stymie his plan.

So, If I CAN kill him, then he was never meant to be Saved. If I CAN kill him, then his portion was always meant to be Perdition.

Taking a life is traumatic. I've been traumatized killing animals to eat, much less humans, but I didn't allow that to let me starve to death. Neither will I allow it to get in the way of defending my family - "A man who will not take care of his own family is worse than an Unbeliever". Some times I reckon, you have to choose between the love for your own people, and the love for the strangers who attack them. In my case, I know which love wins out.

If that makes me "evil" in the eyes of some, then so be it. That's something I'll have to live with, not them.

If I'm wrong in that, then, like Samson who brought down the temple on the heads of guilty and innocent alike, I will have to take that up in due course of time with God. Until that time comes, folks who think they can attack mine with impunity should probably re-think that.

It will be less traumatic for the both of us.

.

[FlickerOfLight]

Just so you understand where I'm coming from here, I'm a Calvinist. All 5 TULIP points. The two that apply here are I - "Iirresistible Grace", and P - "Perseverance of the Saints".

So, if that young fella is destined for Salvation, he won't break into my house while I'm home. He'll either break into someone else's house, or just pass out drunk and skip it for that night. He will be "persevered" until such time as he's ready to accept the Grace he's destined for.

And that Grace WILL come to him, if he's meant for it. He can run, he can hide, but he cannot avoid it forever. God will eventually get him if he's one of God's People. God's will cannot be thwarted forever. We as mortals are emphatically NOT more powerful than God. We cannot stymie his plan.

So, If I CAN kill him, then he was never meant to be Saved. If I CAN kill him, then his portion was always meant to be Perdition.

Taking a life is traumatic. I've been traumatized killing animals to eat, much less humans, but I didn't allow that to let me starve to death. Neither will I allow it to get in the way of defending my family - "A man who will not take care of his own family is worse than an Unbeliever". Some times I reckon, you have to choose between the love for your own people, and the love for the strangers who attack them. In my case, I know which love wins out.

If that makes me "evil" in the eyes of some, then so be it. That's something I'll have to live with, not them.

If I'm wrong in that, then, like Samson who brought down the temple on the heads of guilty and innocent alike, I will have to take that up in due course of time with God. Until that time comes, folks who think they can attack mine with impunity should probably re-think that.

It will be less traumatic for the both of us.

.

Then, whats the point in the gun in the first place?

This ideology makes you an arm of God? Sounds militant to me. If you're protected by God, you don't need a gun. Like you said, you'll never even be bothered with it.

I realize, as I've been sitting here praying and meditating on this, I realized I need to make a serious disclaimer. 

The eldery have a right to protect themselves. I don't see this as an eternal sin.

This is more of a philosophical catch 22 moral question about love and the scenario where you are being robbed and take a life.
People have a right to protect themselves. 

I do realize how vulnerable that makes people. My thoughts were along the same lines as Ninurtas with the right to protect. This day and age to be unarmed or without protection is dangerous. 

Myself personally, I guess am not attached to my stuff like that. Seems contradictory to the way I'm seeing love through the eyes of Christ, which is love. Plus it's not a fear enough to have firearms. I believe in people's right to have them. And the right not to. 

I've always seen this as a moral dilemma when it came to things over life. Evil people kill to preserve possessions. 

Love in general isn't supposed to be that.

That's why the moral dilemma, especially in Christianity. 

If I was a young man, and had a family to protect, I would (and did) feel differently about this. Now that I'm older, single, content and even at peace I still wouldn't disrupt life by ending someone's over my stuff. I guess the kingdom of heaven sounds way more appealing, and not worth risking someone else missing out on.

I think a lot of people have called themselves this or that for a very long time, and with that have given themselves permission to do whatever they seem fit.

There's a saying in evil.
To the pure all things are pure.

Very, very wicked people use this to do a lot of evil. 

I reexamine everything, especially when it becomes rhetoric enough to hear people gloating over this. It doesn't have the appearance of mercy, in the least.

People seem to be talking about that a lot, actually. That's ultimately why I asked the question. 

Maybe it's the fear mongering that has everyone so up in arms, so to speak.

I'm gonna go without arms, just to see what happens now. Lol

Fear is something I'm currently learning to let go of completely. 
That, and listening to people who don't have a clue, but are so damn sure they do. 

Which is a whole Lotta people. 

I have always wondered how I'd actually handle that first scenario. When I think, yeah I'd shoot to protect myself, I start to think of the repercussions that has.

To me, it doesn't matter if it's a child of God or not. Life is still life and created by God, and we should value others and their lives as much as our own.

So when I think about these conversations, and I run it through my faith, I see a moral dilemma. And yes, most certainly from the way I view the scriptures, as well as my Walk.


Added:
I just reread that last post. You sound like you are literally the all mighty judgement and right hand of God.
Sir, I've studied cults.

That was very close to their rhetoric.

Js

[Ninurta]

Then, whats the point in the gun in the first place?

I'm an old man. I'm not as rough and tumble as I once was. A firearm makes the likelihood of a successful defense much more likely.

This ideology makes you an arm of God?

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Seems like an awful stretch to me, a stretch past the breaking point. Putting down a home invader doesn't make me "an arm of God" any more than it makes me a cucumber. It just makes me a defender.

By the way, it's a structured theology rather than just a mere generic ideology. It is called "Reformation Theology", and was a reaction to the catholic church's abuse of religion and power.

Sounds militant to me.

It is. Very. I've never claimed otherwise. Defense is a militant action, and usually cannot be done peacefully when the attacker is not having any peaceful resolution.

If you're protected by God, you don't need a gun. Like you said, you'll never even be bothered with it.

Under that assumption, if I'm protected by God, then neither do I need a fire extinguisher, car insurance, or money. Under that assumption, if I'm protected by God, then there is nothing at all I ever need. God would just give me everything, and I'd never have to do anything. It's a faulty assumption - have you never heard the axiom that God helps those who help themselves?
 

Myself personally, I guess am not attached to my stuff like that. Seems contradictory to the way I'm seeing love through the eyes of Christ, which is love. Plus it's not a fear enough to have firearms. I believe in people's right to have them. And the right not to. 

But in the scenario you presented, this individual breaks into the house while people are home. In that case, and with that bold a home breaker, your "stuff" is the last thing you need to worry about.One must assume under those conditions that anyone breaking in knowing people are there intends harm to the occupants more so than their "stuff". In the scenario presented, the problem is not one of protecting inanimate objects that can be replaced, it is one of protecting the lives and well-being of your family.

And I agree that people have the right to have guns as well as the right NOT to have guns. People must do as their own conscience dictates.

Added:
I just reread that last post. You sound like you are literally the all mighty judgement and right hand of God.
Sir, I've studied cults.

That was very close to their rhetoric.

Js

No. Just... no. I never said any such thing, and have no idea how you could manage to torture that thought out of what I DID say.

But, as far as it being a "cult", I can sort of see how you get that. The Catholic Church said the same thing when the Reformation (from which that theology comes) appeared in the 1400's.

The Catholics killed us in droves back then, and especially in the 1500's on both sides of the Atlantic, for thinking that way and daring to read the Bible and adhere to what it says, rather than taking some priest's word for it. They believed themselves to be doing God's work in passing judgement on us "heretics" and executing us in masses. They got really up in arms about it.

It was called The Inquisition. They eventually got worn out with killing us, and gave up. We were the original Protestants.

Protestantism is the "cult" I stand accused of belonging to, the very root of Protestantism.

Guilty as charged.

You can read your Bible in your own language today because some Protestants were willing to risk execution by the Inquisition, some of whom actually were executed for it (Tyndale comes to mind), for translating the Bible into the language of the common folks.

Even the Catholic Douay-Rheims version of the Bible was a response to Protestant Bible translations, when the Catholics realized they would never be able to stamp out the spirit. In an "if you can't beat 'em, then join 'em" sort of move, they translated the Latin Vulgate Bible in use by the Catholic Church into English to keep Catholics from reading a Protestant translation.

I come from a long, very old, Christian theology which has been name called, persecuted, and reviled for centuries for believing as we do. We're used to it.

.

[FlickerOfLight]

Then, whats the point in the gun in the first place?

I'm an old man. I'm not as rough and tumble as I once was. A firearm makes the likelihood of a successful defense much more likely.

This ideology makes you an arm of God?

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Seems like an awful stretch to me, a stretch past the breaking point. Putting down a home invader doesn't make me "an arm of God" any more than it makes me a cucumber. It just makes me a defender.

By the way, it's a structured theology rather than just a mere generic ideology. It is called "Reformation Theology", and was a reaction to the catholic church's abuse of religion and power.

Sounds militant to me.

It is. Very. I've never claimed otherwise. Defense is a militant action, and usually cannot be done peacefully when the attacker is not having any peaceful resolution.

If you're protected by God, you don't need a gun. Like you said, you'll never even be bothered with it.

Under that assumption, if I'm protected by God, then neither do I need a fire extinguisher, car insurance, or money. Under that assumption, if I'm protected by God, then there is nothing at all I ever need. God would just give me everything, and I'd never have to do anything. It's a faulty assumption - have you never heard the axiom that God helps those who help themselves?
 

Myself personally, I guess am not attached to my stuff like that. Seems contradictory to the way I'm seeing love through the eyes of Christ, which is love. Plus it's not a fear enough to have firearms. I believe in people's right to have them. And the right not to. 

But in the scenario you presented, this individual breaks into the house while people are home. In that case, and with that bold a home breaker, your "stuff" is the last thing you need to worry about.One must assume under those conditions that anyone breaking in knowing people are there intends harm to the occupants more so than their "stuff". In the scenario presented, the problem is not one of protecting inanimate objects that can be replaced, it is one of protecting the lives and well-being of your family.

And I agree that people have the right to have guns as well as the right NOT to have guns. People must do as their own conscience dictates.

Added:
I just reread that last post. You sound like you are literally the all mighty judgement and right hand of God.
Sir, I've studied cults.

That was very close to their rhetoric.

Js

No. Just... no. I never said any such thing, and have no idea how you could manage to torture that thought out of what I DID say.

But, as far as it being a "cult", I can sort of see how you get that. The Catholic Church said the same thing when the Reformation (from which that theology comes) appeared in the 1400's.

The Catholics killed us in droves back then, and especially in the 1500's on both sides of the Atlantic, for thinking that way and daring to read the Bible and adhere to what it says, rather than taking some priest's word for it. They believed themselves to be doing God's work in passing judgement on us "heretics" and executing us in masses. They got really up in arms about it.

It was called The Inquisition. They eventually got worn out with killing us, and gave up. We were the original Protestants.

Protestantism is the "cult" I stand accused of belonging to, the very root of Protestantism.

Guilty as charged.

You can read your Bible in your own language today because some Protestants were willing to risk execution by the Inquisition, some of whom actually were executed for it (Tyndale comes to mind), for translating the Bible into the language of the common folks.

Even the Catholic Douay-Rheims version of the Bible was a response to Protestant Bible translations, when the Catholics realized they would never be able to stamp out the spirit. In an "if you can't beat 'em, then join 'em" sort of move, they translated the Latin Vulgate Bible in use by the Catholic Church into English to keep Catholics from reading a Protestant translation.

I come from a long, very old, Christian theology which has been name called, persecuted, and reviled for centuries for believing as we do. We're used to it.

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I redact.
Let's just say I disagree. This will go nowhere.

[Ninurta]

I suppose I need to redact my response as well. Otherwise it just looks like I'm talking to myself.

This is the only part I will leave:

I'll stay out of your threads from here on out if it upsets you so.  I was under the impression that you were seeking discussion rather than seeking to expound propaganda unopposed. My mistake, I apologize.

I will only add that you are right, we disagree. I do not believe that God intended his people to be slaughtered wholesale by evil folks because of a misguided  definition of "love". Your mileage apparently varies, which is the basis of the disagreement.

God does not love everyone equally, nor does God require it of us. For example, it is written that "God loved Jacob, but hated Esau".

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[FlickerOfLight]

I suppose I need to redact my response as well. Otherwise it just looks like I'm talking to myself.

This is the only part I will leave:

I'll stay out of your threads from here on out if it upsets you so.  I was under the impression that you were seeking discussion rather than seeking to expound propaganda unopposed. My mistake, I apologize.

.

The conversation turned too religious, and wasn't the direction I wanted it to go in, at all.



But, self defense is a basic human right. I didn't mean for this to sound otherwise.