300 dead, 1600 injured and still counting

[putnam6]

Well, 

Turkey will join with Russia and half the middle eastern nations against Israel.

It is prophesized in Ezekiel 38-39

Im a complete novice when it comes to specifics in the Bible


So you are portraying this current conflict as the Biblical apocalyptical end times?  Ive heard this so many times before, while not being blind to the seriousness of these events, don't we need more  before attaching it to being in relationship to Ezekiel 38-39 or the actual end times. 

the final conflict refers to Jordan...not Gaza does it not. So we can be on the cusp but until we have massive armies aligned between Israel and whomever in Jordan, northern Israel, or Lebanon is it still related?

https://www.openbible.info/geo/ancient/a154d7b/hamonah

11 “‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.[g]

12 “‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glory will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord. 14 People will be continually employed in cleansing the land. They will spread out across the land and, along with others, they will bury any bodies that are lying on the ground.

“‘After the seven months they will carry out a more detailed search. 15 As they go through the land, anyone who sees a human bone will leave a marker beside it until the gravediggers bury it in the Valley of Hamon Gog, 16 near a town called Hamonah.[h] And so they will cleanse the land.’

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV

[Grace]

Well, 

Turkey will join with Russia and half the middle eastern nations against Israel.

It is prophesized in Ezekiel 38-39

Im a complete novice when it comes to specifics in the Bible


So you are portraying this current conflict as the Biblical apocalyptical end times?  Ive heard this so many times before, while not being blind to the seriousness of these events, don't we need more  before attaching it to being in relationship to Ezekiel 38-39 or the actual end times. 

the final conflict refers to Jordan...not Gaza does it not. So we can be on the cusp but until we have massive armies aligned between Israel and whomever in Jordan, northern Israel, or Lebanon is it still related?

https://www.openbible.info/geo/ancient/a154d7b/hamonah

11 “‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.[g]

12 “‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glory will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord. 14 People will be continually employed in cleansing the land. They will spread out across the land and, along with others, they will bury any bodies that are lying on the ground.

“‘After the seven months they will carry out a more detailed search. 15 As they go through the land, anyone who sees a human bone will leave a marker beside it until the gravediggers bury it in the Valley of Hamon Gog, 16 near a town called Hamonah.[h] And so they will cleanse the land.’

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV

Actually, in Christianity there are differences of opinion on these prophetic scriptures and in large part most do not see the events of our day as necessarily indicative of anything but another war like any other. 

Just to share with you a different perspective.

That's not to say we shouldn't support Israel, I happen to believe they are in the right, it's just to say Jesus may not come back tomorrow just because WW3 is here with Israel being the flash point.

I believe Israel is being used as the flash point simply because it's the one nation with the ability to be a flash point (many Christians will blindly support them and many Muslims blindly hate them: perfect storm). Not because they are "God's people".

[Ninurta]

 Hey, Gortex good to see you here...

Wasn't the original "official" portrayal the missile hit the hospital directly it was destroyed and there were 500 deaths of innocent Gazans?

I say this with the complete realization that the proportionality here is out of whack , while understanding Israel is still getting attacked for Hezbollah and elsewhere as well as launches from within Gaza. All the while only 2 hostages have been released.

You can't hold innocent civilians while shooting missiles and attacking on all sides and expect Israel to stand down. It can't be shown that anybody gets a reprieve when you kidnap and take civilians hostage.  Again I don't agree with the proportionality but I understand where this has put Israel at.

What I don't understand are all the calls for "proportionality". War is not a proportional game, it's a game you play to win. Proportionality is what you do when you want to drag it out forever, maybe in a bid to get more arms dealer contracts.

On a personal scale, proportionality has never been a factor in any of my fights. I use whatever resources are available to obliterate the enemy, and I keep on obliterating them until I'm happy with the results - I don't stop just because they holler "uncle!" - that only teaches them that they can kick me and then holler "uncle!" to keep from getting kicked right back.

Anyone big enough to jump me or kill off my family is also big enough to take the consequences - which involves their own obliteration, the obliteration of all of their relatives, all of their friends and/or followers, all of their dogs and cats, and their house, their car, and maybe even their workplace if I've been put into a particularly foul mood.

That not only sends a message that I am displeased with their actions, but also that I will retaliate as overwhelmingly as I possibly can.

"Proportionality" is only there to keep arms merchants in business. Once you have obliterated the enemy, there is no longer any reason to fight, and the arms merchant's kids go hungry and have to wear hand me downs - boo fuckin' hoo! They should diversify into construction if they want to keep working.

.

[Ninurta]

Well, 

Turkey will join with Russia and half the middle eastern nations against Israel.

It is prophesized in Ezekiel 38-39

...


So you are portraying this current conflict as the Biblical apocalyptical end times?  Ive heard this so many times before, while not being blind to the seriousness of these events, don't we need more  before attaching it to being in relationship to Ezekiel 38-39 or the actual end times. 

...

It happens every time there is a dustup in the Middle East - all the prophets crawl out of the woodwork with their sandwich-boards brightly painted with "THE END IS NIGH - REPENT!"

I can't count how many times Armageddon has happened just in my lifetime... yet the world just keeps ticking along like clockwork until the next Middle East dustup.

I won't say that Revelations should have been left out of the canon, because that ain't my call, but I will say that the misinterpretations - intentional or not - of Revelations, Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel have caused untold amounts of fear and trembling unnecessarily, and damned little comfort as they were intended to provide.

Their message is not "here's all the icky ways you're gonna die, and you need to calculate them out to the nth degree and dwell on them endlessly, making sure every one else has to dwell on then endlessly, too", their messages are "God is in control, God is gonna win, so fear not. Kick back, relax, trust God and let God do the God thing."

.

[Grace]

 Hey, Gortex good to see you here...

Wasn't the original "official" portrayal the missile hit the hospital directly it was destroyed and there were 500 deaths of innocent Gazans?

I say this with the complete realization that the proportionality here is out of whack , while understanding Israel is still getting attacked for Hezbollah and elsewhere as well as launches from within Gaza. All the while only 2 hostages have been released.

You can't hold innocent civilians while shooting missiles and attacking on all sides and expect Israel to stand down. It can't be shown that anybody gets a reprieve when you kidnap and take civilians hostage.  Again I don't agree with the proportionality but I understand where this has put Israel at.

What I don't understand are all the calls for "proportionality". War is not a proportional game, it's a game you play to win. Proportionality is what you do when you want to drag it out forever, maybe in a bid to get more arms dealer contracts.

On a personal scale, proportionality has never been a factor in any of my fights. I use whatever resources are available to obliterate the enemy, and I keep on obliterating them until I'm happy with the results - I don't stop just because they holler "uncle!" - that only teaches them that they can kick me and then holler "uncle!" to keep from getting kicked right back.

Anyone big enough to jump me or kill off my family is also big enough to take the consequences - which involves their own obliteration, the obliteration of all of their relatives, all of their friends and/or followers, all of their dogs and cats, and their house, their car, and maybe even their workplace if I've been put into a particularly foul mood.

That not only sends a message that I am displeased with their actions, but also that I will retaliate as overwhelmingly as I possibly can.

"Proportionality" is only there to keep arms merchants in business. Once you have obliterated the enemy, there is no longer any reason to fight, and the arms merchant's kids go hungry and have to wear hand me downs - boo fuckin' hoo! They should diversify into construction if they want to keep working.

.

I think the people calling for "proportionality" imagine war as some kind of tit for tat instead of a means of exacting justice. It's very childish thinking in my opinion that has no understanding of what justice actually means. 

A justice which, in this case, would be to remove Hamas from power, both for the Israeli's and for the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas cares a whit about Palestinian lives or well-being any more than they care about Israelis. 

https://youtu.be/nMCC2ihCowg?si=AztMSi9z3G6vdJPX

[putnam6]

 Hey, Gortex good to see you here...

Wasn't the original "official" portrayal the missile hit the hospital directly it was destroyed and there were 500 deaths of innocent Gazans?

I say this with the complete realization that the proportionality here is out of whack , while understanding Israel is still getting attacked for Hezbollah and elsewhere as well as launches from within Gaza. All the while only 2 hostages have been released.

You can't hold innocent civilians while shooting missiles and attacking on all sides and expect Israel to stand down. It can't be shown that anybody gets a reprieve when you kidnap and take civilians hostage.  Again I don't agree with the proportionality but I understand where this has put Israel at.

What I don't understand are all the calls for "proportionality". War is not a proportional game, it's a game you play to win. Proportionality is what you do when you want to drag it out forever, maybe in a bid to get more arms dealer contracts.

On a personal scale, proportionality has never been a factor in any of my fights. I use whatever resources are available to obliterate the enemy, and I keep on obliterating them until I'm happy with the results - I don't stop just because they holler "uncle!" - that only teaches them that they can kick me and then holler "uncle!" to keep from getting kicked right back.

Anyone big enough to jump me or kill off my family is also big enough to take the consequences - which involves their own obliteration, the obliteration of all of their relatives, all of their friends and/or followers, all of their dogs and cats, and their house, their car, and maybe even their workplace if I've been put into a particularly foul mood.

That not only sends a message that I am displeased with their actions, but also that I will retaliate as overwhelmingly as I possibly can.

"Proportionality" is only there to keep arms merchants in business. Once you have obliterated the enemy, there is no longer any reason to fight, and the arms merchant's kids go hungry and have to wear hand me downs - boo fuckin' hoo! They should diversify into construction if they want to keep working.

.

Trying to be diplomatic here, I only use proportionality as it's the buzzword most often heard from those completely behind Palestinians.

For the record, I get it on some levels but understand Israel's responsibilities here more so. They were left with very little choice and a weaker response at the very least would likely lead to the same tactics from Hamas and other groups who want them eliminated.

Don't get me started about the MIC, I loathe the influence they have within our government 

Im a big proponent of Eisenhower. I have no problem believing he was the last totally uncompromised President the US has had.  But I digress

---

 Hey, Gortex good to see you here...

Wasn't the original "official" portrayal the missile hit the hospital directly it was destroyed and there were 500 deaths of innocent Gazans?

I say this with the complete realization that the proportionality here is out of whack , while understanding Israel is still getting attacked for Hezbollah and elsewhere as well as launches from within Gaza. All the while only 2 hostages have been released.

You can't hold innocent civilians while shooting missiles and attacking on all sides and expect Israel to stand down. It can't be shown that anybody gets a reprieve when you kidnap and take civilians hostage.  Again I don't agree with the proportionality but I understand where this has put Israel at.

What I don't understand are all the calls for "proportionality". War is not a proportional game, it's a game you play to win. Proportionality is what you do when you want to drag it out forever, maybe in a bid to get more arms dealer contracts.

On a personal scale, proportionality has never been a factor in any of my fights. I use whatever resources are available to obliterate the enemy, and I keep on obliterating them until I'm happy with the results - I don't stop just because they holler "uncle!" - that only teaches them that they can kick me and then holler "uncle!" to keep from getting kicked right back.

Anyone big enough to jump me or kill off my family is also big enough to take the consequences - which involves their own obliteration, the obliteration of all of their relatives, all of their friends and/or followers, all of their dogs and cats, and their house, their car, and maybe even their workplace if I've been put into a particularly foul mood.

That not only sends a message that I am displeased with their actions, but also that I will retaliate as overwhelmingly as I possibly can.

"Proportionality" is only there to keep arms merchants in business. Once you have obliterated the enemy, there is no longer any reason to fight, and the arms merchant's kids go hungry and have to wear hand me downs - boo fuckin' hoo! They should diversify into construction if they want to keep working.

.

I think the people calling for "proportionality" imagine war as some kind of tit for tat instead of a means of exacting justice. It's very childish thinking in my opinion that has no understanding of what justice actually means. 

A justice which, in this case, would be to remove Hamas from power, both for the Israeli's and for the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas cares a whit about Palestinian lives or well-being any more than they care about Israelis. 

https://youtu.be/nMCC2ihCowg?si=AztMSi9z3G6vdJPX

Like my reply to Ninurta I use proportionality because it's the buzzword I see everywhere. If we are going to change minds we need to approach the discussion atleast acknowledging their concerns. 

Fully aware "war is hell" I was bothered by the brutality of the "Highway of Death" too but it didn't mean I didn't understand the reasons for doing the job so thoroughly. 

Israel is faced with an infinitely more immediate and dangerous threat. 

That said I just don't want to see this escalate and Im aware that's exactly what Hamas and other Arab factions want.

[EndtheMadnessNow]

American/Israeli hostages released, Judith Tai Raanan, 59, and her daughter Natalie Raanan, 17:

On Saturday October 7, they were visiting Tamar in the Gaza border community of Nahal Oz, staying in a kibbutz guest apartment that is located in the first row of residences, closest to the fence and entrance gate.

Judith was born in Israel, grew up in Holon and later traveled to the United States, where she met Uri Raanan, Natalie’s father. Natalie was born in the United States and her parents divorced when she was in kindergarten. After the separation, Judith became drawn to the Orthodox Chabad movement and started living observantly. She works as a sterilization technician in hospitals and is also a professional beautician. But above all, the family says, she is an artist – a talented painter who paints in bold and vibrant colors.

American Hostages Released by Hamas: This Is Their Story

Chabad movement is one of the largest Hasidic groups and Jewish religious organizations in the world.


Way too close for comfort:



Google maps has this tiny town moderately blurred out.


The kibbutz was founded in 1951 as the country's first Nahal settlement. It was initially referred to as Nahlayim Mul Aza (Nahal soldiers across from Gaza). In 1953 it became a civilian socialist community. 2021 population was 471. The kibbutz grows carrots, cotton and wheat, and operates a dairy with 600 cows. Past sources of income include a metal works factory that produced industrial-sized ratchet bits and a high tech firm, OzVision, that links security cameras to the Web. In February 2023, a team from Israel’s National Infrastructure Committee came to inspect the area in preparation for building a 4,250 acre solar panel field along the border.

Living on the Edge in Kibbutz Nahal Oz

Some members of the community expressed their concerns with calls for aid, as with DICE Corporation’s Co-President Avi Lupo. “Those who know me, know how connected I am to Israel and how the horrible attacks have left me devastated. What you may not remember is that there is an even deeper connection from my days with OzVision. The company is located on the Kibbutz Nahal Oz, just across from Gaza. As you saw on the news, the kibbutz was hit hard with brutal killings and kidnappings of children, women, and senior citizens. Homes were destroyed.”
Security Systems News

Last tweet was Jan 26, 2017 and website is dead:

OzVision is a video and IoT data management, analytics and storage company, The Company's cloud-based solution enables real-time transmission of high-quality video in a very robust way (>99.99% uptime) with zero latency.

OzVision's cloud platform ingests data streams (including video, audio, sensors, meta data and log-files) from millions of data sensors, such as cameras, DVRs/ NVRs, set-top boxes, smart thermostats, smart plugs, connected doorbells, and routers. The cloud platform provides live streaming, device management, data indexing and storage, and a foundation for analysis for a variety of business and residential purposes (such as facial recognition, anomaly detection or motion tracking). The services are offered through partner applications running over the OzVision data store.

OzVision archived

I'm not sure what happened to OzVision. Went out of business or were acquired (Swann Security of Australia?), but they had a serious security flaw in their camera software that gave anyone access to your camera surveillance back in 2018.

On a small Israeli military base at Nahal Oz, next to the Gaza border, there's a windowless room where soldiers peer 24 hours a day at video screens. They're watching live footage from cameras monitoring the Gaza Strip, controlled by the militant group Hamas.

Soldiers see a lot – a damaged home getting slowly repaired after the 2014 war, donkeys guided by farmers, suspected Hamas militants on motorcycles. But they can't see underground, where tunnels beneath the border may pose the biggest threat to Israel here.

In the observation room, the soldiers monitoring the screens are all female.

"Girls do it the best," says 20-year-old Orr Israeli, a commander. "They have this commitment. They feel obligated to the job, the mission, without tak[ing] their eyes off the screen."

Each watches three screens. Each screen has five views. They flip between black-and-white, color or heat-triggered pictures. They zoom in and out. As the commander explains the mission, a siren goes off in the room.

When a Gazan gets too close to the border fence, a soldier marks the spot with a red diamond on the screen. That makes the siren blast. The data goes up the command chain or out to soldiers in the field.

"These sirens, you jump," says Israeli, the commander. "This is so everyone can see this in one spot, on one map, so everyone can know where it is."

A 24-year-old field commander and a 20-year-old soldier take me to a border post and pull out their binoculars. The military, citing security, won't let them say even their first names.

"You can see from here the Hamas post, the white post," the soldier says, indicating a white tower 300 yards away.

He hands me his binoculars. I see a red tractor. "That's a farmer," the soldier says. Then he points out a man with a motorcycle, sitting in an olive grove. The Israeli soldier says that man is a "Hamasnik," meaning a member of Hamas.

Militants sometimes plant bombs near the border, targeting Israeli army vehicles that go on both sides of the fence. Tunnel teams try to drill underneath the fence and into Israel.

In 2014, the commander says, "A tunnel came out right here." He points a few yards away. "Eight Hamas militants came out during the war. They can be anywhere."

A camera is permanently stationed at this spot along the fence. A machine gun is, too. Both are controlled by Israeli soldiers back in the observation room.

The View Of Gaza, On 24/7 Video

Ok, in 2016 if so much as a single guy wandering around on the Gaza side who was even suspected of being Hamas received a sniper round through the leg. So, at some point after 2016 or probably somewhere around 2020-2023, did the female human Watchers get replaced with AI...that failed??


The stories just keep getting better...the old thumbdrive narrative...sigh...

Scoop: Israel says it found Hamas files with instructions for making cyanide-based weapon

The Israeli military found a USB key with instructions for the production of a "cyanide dispersion device" on the body of a Hamas operative who participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack, according to two Israeli officials and a copy of a classified Israeli Foreign Ministry cable obtained by Axios.

The big picture: It is not clear from the file whether Hamas had any serious or operational plan for using makeshift chemical weapons or whether the group had attempted to produce them.

Next will be the Hamas Labtop from hell that somehow survived the Israeli carpet bombing found under 10 tons of rubble that happened to have a nuclear hardened SSD.

[Grace]

Like my reply to Ninurta I use proportionality because it's the buzzword I see everywhere. If we are going to change minds we need to approach the discussion atleast acknowledging their concerns. 

Fully aware "war is hell" I was bothered by the brutality of the "Highway of Death" too but it didn't mean I didn't understand the reasons for doing the job so thoroughly. 

Israel is faced with an infinitely more immediate and dangerous threat. 

That said I just don't want to see this escalate and Im aware that's exactly what Hamas and other Arab factions want.

Myself personally I liked some of the thoughts that Ramaswamy has actually, coming from an American standpoint. Did you catch his interview with Tucker?

[Ninurta]

Hamas gets no brownie points with me for releasing two "dual citizen" Israelis as "Americans", not even on a claim of "humanitarian grounds". Two people released, at least 201 (at the last count I heard of 203 hostages) still caged. Not a good enough percentage.

And a claim of "humanitarian grounds"... REALLY? "Humanitarian" would have been not torturing, executing, and kidnapping civilians to begin with. That just don't cut any ice with me.

I still want to see all of 'em pounded into bug dust until no Hamas operative can walk or even roll far enough to answer a phone.

.

[putnam6]

Like my reply to Ninurta I use proportionality because it's the buzzword I see everywhere. If we are going to change minds we need to approach the discussion atleast acknowledging their concerns. 

Fully aware "war is hell" I was bothered by the brutality of the "Highway of Death" too but it didn't mean I didn't understand the reasons for doing the job so thoroughly. 

Israel is faced with an infinitely more immediate and dangerous threat. 

That said I just don't want to see this escalate and Im aware that's exactly what Hamas and other Arab factions want.

Myself personally I liked some of the thoughts that Ramaswamy has actually, coming from an American standpoint. Did you catch his interview with Tucker?

  I just watched this from your link... 


I agree Israel must have clear goals, of course, some will say they do, as they have stated it's the complete elimination of Hamas. Could have sworn I saw a minor protest of the Palestinian President calling for him to resign, but it's no doubt been squashed or drowned out from all that is occurring. 

it is simple...

#1 Release the hostages if not all the hostages damn well certain the civilian ones

#2 Stop all missile and rocket attacks from Gaza

#3 Stop attacks inside and outside greater Israel

#4 Turnover the leaders of Hamas, and those who did the drug-crazed siege of southern Israel 

We know thats not going to happen Hamas still thinks they can negotiate the release of some of their prisoners

but otherwise, Israel leaves itself open to more attacks and more attacks and it's better to nip that in the bud than to face it over and over. Again at the very least. 

I also know whenever Biden whispers something, it's even more complete bullshit than his normal BS. We were already running low on certain arms and munitions from Ukraine. FWIW that could have emboldened Hamas a little bit in itself as it tries to get more of the Arab world directly involved

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-769567

Obviously, the PTB in Israel is doing this to avoid any more civilian deaths or kidnappings, rightfully so

BREAKING NEWS
14 northern Israel communities to be evacuated

An additional 14 communities in northern Israel were added to the state-funded evacuation plan by the IDF and the National Emergency Management Authority (NEMA), according to a joint statement from the Defense Ministry and the IDF.

The communities that are being evacuated are Snir, Dan, Beit Hillel, She'ar Yashuv, Hagoshrim, Liman, Matzuva, Eylon, Goren, Granot Hagalil, Even Menachem, Sasa, Tzivon, and Ramot Naftali.

[Grace]

  I just watched this from your link... 


I agree Israel must have clear goals, of course, some will say they do, as they have stated it's the complete elimination of Hamas. Could have sworn I saw a minor protest of the Palestinian President calling for him to resign, but it's no doubt been squashed or drowned out from all that is occurring. 

it is simple...

#1 Release the hostages if not all the hostages damn well certain the civilian ones

#2 Stop all missile and rocket attacks from Gaza

#3 Stop attacks inside and outside greater Israel

#4 Turnover the leaders of Hamas, and those who did the drug-crazed siege of southern Israel 

We know thats not going to happen Hamas still thinks they can negotiate the release of some of their prisoners

but otherwise, Israel leaves itself open to more attacks and more attacks and it's better to nip that in the bud than to face it over and over. Again at the very least. 

I also know whenever Biden whispers something, it's even more complete bullshit than his normal BS. We were already running low on certain arms and munitions from Ukraine. FWIW that could have emboldened Hamas a little bit in itself as it tries to get more of the Arab world directly involved

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-769567

Obviously, the PTB in Israel is doing this to avoid any more civilian deaths or kidnappings, rightfully so

BREAKING NEWS
14 northern Israel communities to be evacuated

An additional 14 communities in northern Israel were added to the state-funded evacuation plan by the IDF and the National Emergency Management Authority (NEMA), according to a joint statement from the Defense Ministry and the IDF.

The communities that are being evacuated are Snir, Dan, Beit Hillel, She'ar Yashuv, Hagoshrim, Liman, Matzuva, Eylon, Goren, Granot Hagalil, Even Menachem, Sasa, Tzivon, and Ramot Naftali

I understand that is what Israel says the objective is, to completely remove Hamas from power, but the question is whether or not that's doable without starting WW3. Here I believe we likely agree.

As to getting another ceasefire going, they were under a ceasefire when Hamas did this on the 7th. So, Hamas cannot be trusted to keep their word, which goes back to them being a terrorist organization with their only goal being to kill or otherwise push out the Jews completely. They aren't any kind of government. 

The second Israel is under a two front war is the second we are completely in regardless, we have a defense pact with them. 

We are at our nations weakest point, which is why we are seeing Russia, China, and other countries and peoples working together to get us embroiled in this quagmire. 

For Israel to actually get rid fully of Hamas two things have to be considered - what is going to replace Hamas (power vacuums will be filled, so you have to have something amenable in place or what you'll end up with will be worse) once you get rid of Hamas. 

And the second consideration is what will be the "civilian" casualties. Because to get rid of Hamas fully - those casualties will be very high , Hamas will make sure of it. 

We are already seeing the middle east blow up over this and Israel has not done 1 thing that was out of line for the situation. 

What happens when there's real stuff to show on the news? There will be no getting out of a very major war with many countries at that point, and apparently no one wants to stop funding Ukraine yet.

Our best bet is to find some doable goals that will minimize loss of life and give us a fighting chance. 

In this asking for Hamas' top 100, a different government in Gaza (if possible as that still may not be doable) and the hostages back. 

These are reasonable demands - and sounds more giving than all of Hamas dead, exiled or jailed. 

You can ask for every woman and child under 16 to leave Gaza for safety's sake and go to war with the rest there fighting, but the ex-Hamas guy is right, the tunnels pose a serious problem and they have to be dealt with... 

And then you have to ask whether other countries will even take Palestinian women and children - so far it's a big fat no from Muslim nations. If you can't get them out they are simply going to be used as Human shields by Hamas and your back to the optics and other nations jumping in. 

You might think the US military might is a deterrent, but world opinion with all this Marxist ideology coupled with a weak and broke government, we aren't going to deter anyone I fear. 

So our best bet is to have Israel give a little on getting rid of Hamas in full... I think Hamas needs to be severely wounded such that it will take a good long while for them to regroup, but i do believe this situation was set up just to get two birds with one stone (or two stones if you will). To get Israel and the United States both in a two front war (two of Israel's border's and Ukraine and Israel for us) while the US is in debt up to our eyeballs to China and the US is at civil unrest internally. 

This has the potential to destroy us if we aren't willing to do what it takes to survive it - and I don't see our leadership as willing. Unfortunately, neither does anyone else, which is why they're dog piling now.

I think the difference between what we are thinking is to what extent Hamas needs to go, which is a doable conversation to have as it's achievable to come to agreement here.

[gortex]

Human Rights investigators analysing the available data from the Hospital strike say indications from doppler sound tracking analysis from the video of the strike indicated the missile came from the East and not West as claimed by the IDF , imagery of the crater seems to back that analysis up , analysis of the audio of the alleged conversation between the two militants released by the IDF as part of their "evidence" is of two different conversations edited together using an audio workstation.

 Hey, Gortex good to see you here...

Wasn't the original "official" portrayal the missile hit the hospital directly it was destroyed and there were 500 deaths of innocent Gazans?

I say this with the complete realization that the proportionality here is out of whack , while understanding Israel is still getting attacked for Hezbollah and elsewhere as well as launches from within Gaza. All the while only 2 hostages have been released.

You can't hold innocent civilians while shooting missiles and attacking on all sides and expect Israel to stand down. It can't be shown that anybody gets a reprieve when you kidnap and take civilians hostage.  Again I don't agree with the proportionality but I understand where this has put Israel at.

Hi Putnam , thanks for the welcome.

At the time of the strike the unofficial report from those at the scene was the missile hit the car park where civilians were sheltering which would seem to be the case , Israel said it was a failed rocket launch by terrorists which like other claims they've made would seem not to be the case if the claims in the video are correct.

Personally I think Israel are where they want to be , not sure they're that interested in the hostages as their deaths bolster Israel's position.

As you know I've taken much heat at the other place over this but I'm only calling it as I see it , I'm not anti semitic I'm anti war but this war seems to me to be a war of opportunity on Israel's part , or more specifically Netanyahu and his unpopular Far Right government , I see little proportionality but much crimes against humanity with the West seemingly happy to ignore war crimes taking place in Gaza , our governments have blood on their hands too.

[727Sky]

550 missile misfires from Hamas that landed in the Gaza strip ? Looking at some of their home made pipe rockets it is a real possibility.

[putnam6]

  I just watched this from your link... 


I agree Israel must have clear goals, of course, some will say they do, as they have stated it's the complete elimination of Hamas. Could have sworn I saw a minor protest of the Palestinian President calling for him to resign, but it's no doubt been squashed or drowned out from all that is occurring. 

it is simple...

#1 Release the hostages if not all the hostages damn well certain the civilian ones

#2 Stop all missile and rocket attacks from Gaza

#3 Stop attacks inside and outside greater Israel

#4 Turnover the leaders of Hamas, and those who did the drug-crazed siege of southern Israel 

We know thats not going to happen Hamas still thinks they can negotiate the release of some of their prisoners

but otherwise, Israel leaves itself open to more attacks and more attacks and it's better to nip that in the bud than to face it over and over. Again at the very least. 

I also know whenever Biden whispers something, it's even more complete bullshit than his normal BS. We were already running low on certain arms and munitions from Ukraine. FWIW that could have emboldened Hamas a little bit in itself as it tries to get more of the Arab world directly involved

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-769567

Obviously, the PTB in Israel is doing this to avoid any more civilian deaths or kidnappings, rightfully so

BREAKING NEWS
14 northern Israel communities to be evacuated

An additional 14 communities in northern Israel were added to the state-funded evacuation plan by the IDF and the National Emergency Management Authority (NEMA), according to a joint statement from the Defense Ministry and the IDF.

The communities that are being evacuated are Snir, Dan, Beit Hillel, She'ar Yashuv, Hagoshrim, Liman, Matzuva, Eylon, Goren, Granot Hagalil, Even Menachem, Sasa, Tzivon, and Ramot Naftali

I understand that is what Israel says the objective is, to completely remove Hamas from power, but the question is whether or not that's doable without starting WW3. Here I believe we likely agree.

As to getting another ceasefire going, they were under a ceasefire when Hamas did this on the 7th. So, Hamas cannot be trusted to keep their word, which goes back to them being a terrorist organization with their only goal being to kill or otherwise push out the Jews completely. They aren't any kind of government. 

The second Israel is under a two front war is the second we are completely in regardless, we have a defense pact with them. 

We are at our nations weakest point, which is why we are seeing Russia, China, and other countries and peoples working together to get us embroiled in this quagmire. 

For Israel to actually get rid fully of Hamas two things have to be considered - what is going to replace Hamas (power vacuums will be filled, so you have to have something amenable in place or what you'll end up with will be worse) once you get rid of Hamas. 

And the second consideration is what will be the "civilian" casualties. Because to get rid of Hamas fully - those casualties will be very high , Hamas will make sure of it. 

We are already seeing the middle east blow up over this and Israel has not done 1 thing that was out of line for the situation. 

What happens when there's real stuff to show on the news? There will be no getting out of a very major war with many countries at that point, and apparently no one wants to stop funding Ukraine yet.

Our best bet is to find some doable goals that will minimize loss of life and give us a fighting chance. 

In this asking for Hamas' top 100, a different government in Gaza (if possible as that still may not be doable) and the hostages back. 

These are reasonable demands - and sounds more giving than all of Hamas dead, exiled or jailed. 

You can ask for every woman and child under 16 to leave Gaza for safety's sake and go to war with the rest there fighting, but the ex-Hamas guy is right, the tunnels pose a serious problem and they have to be dealt with... 

And then you have to ask whether other countries will even take Palestinian women and children - so far it's a big fat no from Muslim nations. If you can't get them out they are simply going to be used as Human shields by Hamas and your back to the optics and other nations jumping in. 

You might think the US military might is a deterrent, but world opinion with all this Marxist ideology coupled with a weak and broke government, we aren't going to deter anyone I fear. 

So our best bet is to have Israel give a little on getting rid of Hamas in full... I think Hamas needs to be severely wounded such that it will take a good long while for them to regroup, but i do believe this situation was set up just to get two birds with one stone (or two stones if you will). To get Israel and the United States both in a two front war (two of Israel's border's and Ukraine and Israel for us) while the US is in debt up to our eyeballs to China and the US is at civil unrest internally. 

This has the potential to destroy us if we aren't willing to do what it takes to survive it - and I don't see our leadership as willing. Unfortunately, neither does anyone else, which is why they're dog piling now.

I think the difference between what we are thinking is to what extent Hamas needs to go, which is a doable conversation to have as it's achievable to come to agreement here.

First of all thanks for the discussion, I try not to talk about this in the real world it's good to have an outlet. Most places on social media are in complete chaos and rational talks are impossible. 

I was 8 years old when Munich happened, subsequent generations don't understand when it comes to hostages Israel is a honey badger it will not quit.  IIRC the story of the civilian American contractor who worked for years in Iraq, helping to rebuild the country. He developed a friendship with an Iraqi over the years and one day he talked about going outside the green zone. His Iraqi friend told him to not talk of such things and to never go out unescorted. The contractor asked why, he had been there for years all he had done was help rebuild, etc, the Iraqi told him in no uncertain terms if he went outside the green zone he would be either kidnapped and held for ransom or be robbed and have his throat slit. Thats the attitudes what we are dealing with currently

Most of the GP don't understand what it is like in the Middle East, hell I don't either but Ive read stories and have had the privilege to work with all kinds of nationalities over the years and always listened to their experiences.

I think Hamas made a serious miscalculation, and who knows they may have been given assurances, but they thought there would be more of an uprising in the Arab world. It still may happen, but they had to know such an attack was going to bring about an immediate brutal response. As enflamed as the Muslim general public is until there is complete mobilization of the actual armies, we will see a measured response followed by a measured response. So far we are seeing the Arab world saying things like if the Israeli aggression continues they can't guarantee the security of the oil fields. Collectively we should be past such concerns, Turkey is the wildcard here, the fact they are a NATO member nation, and just hearing they want to run exercises while the US Navy is in the vicinity, we don't need more defections that embolden Hamas. This is the part where the weakness of the American administration played a huge part in my estimation. Instead of being able to turn down the temperature, it's ratcheting up. As Ramaswamy said though Israel could pound Gaza completely into the sand and yet, and they haven't. Is about the only hopeful part of this so far. 

Working with so many nationalities over the years and as a "dumb, self-centered" American I used to always go back to this quote, during times such as these the events of these past 15 days have rocked that a little bit. I still think there is 15-20% of both sides who want to tear each other to bits, consequences be damned, it's the 60% wanting everybody to calm down and be semi-rational for a moment. It seems we are living The Strauss–Howe generational theory of the book The Fourth Turning.

[EndtheMadnessNow]

Warlog Update for Sunday, Oct 22::

Heavy airstrikes in Gaza right now. Lots of kabooms & rapid gunfire.

Updated list of all Cities and Towns within the “Combat Operation Zone” around the Gaza Strip and Israel/Lebanon border that have been told to evacuate.

New changes to the evacuation of communities 2km from the Lebanon border has been extended to 4km.

Lastest towns added:

Snir, Dan, Beit Hillel, She’ar Yashuv, Hagoshrim, Liman, Matzuva, Eylon, Goren, Gornot HaGalil, Even Menachem, Sasa, Tziv’on, Ramot Naftali.

“Further evacuations will be carried out according to the assessment of the situation" according to IDF.

Towns in the "Combat Operation Zone" around Gaza are the following:

Nahal Oz, Erez, Nir Am, Mefalsim, Kfar Aza, Gevim, Or Haner, Ibim, Netiv Ha’asara, Yad Mordechai, Karmia, Zikim, Kerem Shalom, Kissufim, Holit, Sufa, Nirim, Nir Oz, Ein Hashlosha, Nir Yitzhak, Be’eri, Magen, Re’im, Sa’ad, Alumim, Sderot.

Towns evacuated 4km from the Isreal/Lebanon border are the following:

Kiryat Shmona, Ghajar, Dishon, Kfar Yuval, Margaliot, Metula, Avivim, Dovev, Ma’ayan Baruch, Bara’m, Manara, Yiftach, Malkia, Misgav Am, Yir’on, Dafna, Arab al-Aramshe, Shlomi, Netu’a, Ya’ara, Shtula, Matat, Zari’t, Shomera, Betzet, Adamit, Rosh HaNikram, Hanita, Kfar Giladi, Snir, Dan, Beit Hillel, She’ar Yashuv, Hagoshrim, Liman, Matzuva, Eylon, Goren, Gornot HaGalil, Even Menachem, Sasa, Tziv’on, Ramot Naftali.

These evacuations were implemented by local municipalities, in coordination with the Ministry of Interior and the National Emergency Management Authority (NEMA) of the Ministry of Defense and IDF.




The population of the towns around the Combat Operation Zone told to evacuate ~45,617.

The population of the towns 4km from the Israel/Lebanon border: ~56,900

Total amount of Israel citizens told to evacuate: ~102,500.

May be an additional 36 towns according to Times of Israel. They state that 105 communities have been evacuated or told to evacuate.

"Times Of Israel" military correspondent:



US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in Fox news interview earlier today said Israel’s impending ground offensive into Gaza will be more difficult than the 9-month assault the US led against ISIS in Mosul.

More round-table discussions...



In an interview with Sky News, Israeli President Herzog revealed that Hamas planned to use chemical weapons against the Israeli civilians. Oh boy, another hunt for WMD's is brewing.

[putnam6]

Human Rights investigators analysing the available data from the Hospital strike say indications from doppler sound tracking analysis from the video of the strike indicated the missile came from the East and not West as claimed by the IDF , imagery of the crater seems to back that analysis up , analysis of the audio of the alleged conversation between the two militants released by the IDF as part of their "evidence" is of two different conversations edited together using an audio workstation.

 Hey, Gortex good to see you here...

Wasn't the original "official" portrayal the missile hit the hospital directly it was destroyed and there were 500 deaths of innocent Gazans?

I say this with the complete realization that the proportionality here is out of whack , while understanding Israel is still getting attacked for Hezbollah and elsewhere as well as launches from within Gaza. All the while only 2 hostages have been released.

You can't hold innocent civilians while shooting missiles and attacking on all sides and expect Israel to stand down. It can't be shown that anybody gets a reprieve when you kidnap and take civilians hostage.  Again I don't agree with the proportionality but I understand where this has put Israel at.

Hi Putnam , thanks for the welcome.

At the time of the strike the unofficial report from those at the scene was the missile hit the car park where civilians were sheltering which would seem to be the case , Israel said it was a failed rocket launch by terrorists which like other claims they've made would seem not to be the case if the claims in the video are correct.

Personally I think Israel are where they want to be , not sure they're that interested in the hostages as their deaths bolster Israel's position.

As you know I've taken much heat at the other place over this but I'm only calling it as I see it , I'm not anti semitic I'm anti war but this war seems to me to be a war of opportunity on Israel's part , or more specifically Netanyahu and his unpopular Far Right government , I see little proportionality but much crimes against humanity with the West seemingly happy to ignore war crimes taking place in Gaza , our governments have blood on their hands too.

NO, multiple sources prime MSM sources reported the hospital was hit and there were 500 dead, why is that fact so hard to admit?  The source was Gaza Health minister

Im no fan of Netanyahu, but he didn't kidnap the hostages Hamas did. Release the hostages, release some of the hostages 

They have to release the hostages, at least the civilians. 
The unpopular government of Netanyahu isn't being challenged because the attack by Hamas was so heinous those on the fence want retribution, and even some on the left are solidly behind in getting the hostages out. 

The only ones against Netanyahu are the orthodox Hasidic Jews. Or they were 



Which is why this was a serious miscalculation from Hamas. Unless they wanted all-out war we are a step closer, the more targets in the region the more chances of escalation.

Hell Syria is going to pop first, all it will take now is American soldiers getting killed somewhere

REALITY

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Re...rease-for/

RELEASE
IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Statement From Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III on Steps to Increase Force Posture
Oct. 21, 2023
 
Following detailed discussions with President Biden on recent escalations by Iran and its proxy forces across the Middle East Region, today I directed a series of additional steps to further strengthen the Department of Defense posture in the region. These steps will bolster regional deterrence efforts, increase force protection for U.S. forces in the region, and assist in the defense of Israel.

First, I redirected the movement of the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower Carrier Strike Group to the Central Command area of responsibility. This carrier strike group is in addition to the USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group, which is currently operating in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea. It will further increase our force posture and strengthen our capabilities and ability to respond to a range of contingencies.

I have also activated the deployment of a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) battery as well as additional Patriot battalions to locations throughout the region to increase force protection for U.S. forces.

Finally, I have placed an additional number of forces on prepare to deploy orders as part of prudent contingency planning, to increase their readiness and ability to quickly respond as required.

I will continue to assess our force posture requirements in the region and consider deploying additional capabilities as necessary.

[putnam6]

Sounds as if the IDF is ready for the ground invasion and the only holdup is being told to wait by Secretary Austin. Once that occurs all bets are off, could easily see terrorist attacks virtually anywhere in the world coordinated or just sympathetic. 

Not to mention there aren't nearly enough troops in the region. Godspeed to our forces, but it doesn't feel as prepared as Desert Shield or Desert Storm, feels like it's going to go down pissed off and half-cocked. Not an effective strategy, hundreds of ways this shit can go sideways fast. 

Am I wrong? hell I hope so... doesn't feel like anybody is backing down 

[727Sky]

[727Sky]

Many people already know just how severe the infiltration of America really is by various factions who seek America's destruction.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

Many people already know just how severe the infiltration of America really is by various factions who seek America's destruction.

A common refrain.

We seem to not lack knowing. We lack doing.

"I told you it was going to happen", has never stopped anything from happening.

Yet it seems to be the only thing the majority of us seem to offer as a solution, and why we are going to fail.