The Universe isn't Expanding, Matter is Contracting.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

There is the expanding universe, the contracting universe, the pulsating universe, and now the universe inside a black hole theory. That one expands because of a bounce-back effect from the contraction, like a mini-pulsation inside a giant black hole.

But maybe it is more like the exact opposite.

Gravity and the inverse square law draw things towards themselves at an ever-increasing rate, leaving the empty space without distortion and able to retain its shape and size. This makes it appear that everything in the universe is moving away from everything else, when in fact the mass is actually drawing into itself, or shrinking, leaving empty space to remain static in size and not really expanding.

[Ninurta]

Makes sense.

How could the universe possibly expand? What exactly would it expand into?

Beyond the universe is nothingness. Nothingness is, well, nothingness. No mass. No time. No "space", which is made up of length, width, and height. Nothing. So how could anything expand into that? There is literally "nothing" to expand into. No structure to hold what is expanding.

.

[Bally002]

No wonder I need Dramamine all the time.

Bally)

[FCD]

For the last 100 years or so modern science has been making excuses to avoid the obvious about the Universe.

The Universe is just one cell (comprised of many "atoms" (i.e. galaxies, solar systems and planets)) in a larger organism comprised of many other 'cells', an organism which itself is just a tiny cell in yet an even larger organism.  And so on, and so on.

Sheeesh!  It's not that hard!   

When the 'Universe' expands, the larger organism just ate too much salt and is retaining water (Micky D's and chips).  So, the Universe has to put its feet up.  Swelling goes down...Universe contracts.  Pulsating Universe...the next day after the Universe went on a bender with one too many shots of schnapps at last call.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I'm surprised no one posted about the curvature of space and how gravity warps space and distorts time. However, gravity makes itself known by how it affects mass. Without objects to attract, there would be no frame of reference. No one could say that gravity does anything without something being there first. 

If there were no planets to hold moons in orbit and no suns or black holes to warp the surrounding "empty space", then any gravity that radiated out into that space would have zero effect; at least it wouldn't have anything you could see being affected.

So, gravity in the absence of any matter in empty space isn't warping space, especially if space is nothing. Now, maybe if space were something, like the old aether theory, then I can see how it would contract or expand when an outside force is applied.

---

Makes sense.

How could the universe possibly expand? What exactly would it expand into?

Beyond the universe is nothingness. Nothingness is, well, nothingness. No mass. No time. No "space", which is made up of length, width, and height. Nothing. So how could anything expand into that? There is literally "nothing" to expand into. No structure to hold what is expanding.

If space is expanding, it is inside something. Like the rubber balloon explanation of cosmic expansion, where galaxies are dots on the surface of a balloon that is expanding and getting larger. That 2-D explanation is lacking because there is no center to radiate out of, no beginning point of the big bang.

So if space is static and isn't warping or expanding, then everything in space is receding by getting more compact and smaller. This is more like a big implosion, not a big bang.



Maybe this empty space isn't empty but more like a fluid and under tremendous pressure, pushing against matter to compact it into a smaller size. This explanation of gravity as being something like water pressure wouldn't be expansion or contraction of empty space either. Fits with the universe inside a black hole theory pretty well, too. Unfortunately, this idea doesn't explain how light bends around a massive source of gravity, at least not in any way I could understand.

It is all about point of view, like the difference between linear time and a four-dimensional landscape version of time. One is the hands of a clock moving forward with the usual cause and effect, while the other is traveling from point A to point B in the fourth dimension.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

For the last 100 years or so modern science has been making excuses to avoid the obvious about the Universe.

The Universe is just one cell (comprised of many "atoms" (i.e. galaxies, solar systems and planets)) in a larger organism comprised of many other 'cells', an organism which itself is just a tiny cell in yet an even larger organism.  And so on, and so on.

Sheeesh!  It's not that hard!   

When the 'Universe' expands, the larger organism just ate too much salt and is retaining water (Micky D's and chips).  So, the Universe has to put its feet up.  Swelling goes down...Universe contracts.  Pulsating Universe...the next day after the Universe went on a bender with one too many shots of schnapps at last call.

Yeah, turtles all the way down. 

What if that universal swelling is accompanied by morning sickness? After a night on the town, Miss Universe might just miss her period.

[FCD]

I'm surprised no one posted about the curvature of space and how gravity warps space and distorts time. However, gravity makes itself known by how it affects mass. ...

...

Well, I could have gone there, but why belabor the point??  Could have gotten into all sorts of complicated physics and mathematics, and blubbered about for a long while, ultimately ending up at..."Meh!  Who knows???  Nobody really knows for sure!  (shrug)  BUT...lemme' tell ya' about this equally plausible theory which is a lot more simple (and fun to discuss)!"  

---

Yeah, turtles all the way down. 

What if that universal swelling is accompanied by morning sickness? After a night on the town, Miss Universe might just miss her period.

Jeezus...what happens when the Universe 'kills the rabbit'???????  (shudder!)

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I'm surprised no one posted about the curvature of space and how gravity warps space and distorts time. However, gravity makes itself known by how it affects mass. ...

...

Well, I could have gone there, but why belabor the point??  Could have gotten into all sorts of complicated physics and mathematics, and blubbered about for a long while, ultimately ending up at..."Meh!  Who knows???  Nobody really knows for sure!  (shrug)  BUT...lemme' tell ya' about this equally plausible theory which is a lot more simple (and fun to discuss)!"  

---

Yeah, turtles all the way down. 

What if that universal swelling is accompanied by morning sickness? After a night on the town, Miss Universe might just miss her period.

Jeezus...what happens when the Universe 'kills the rabbit'???????  (shudder!)

ETA: I noticed the lyrics where a little hard to catch, so here they are.

David Bowie – Baby Universal - Album: Tin Machine

Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby,
Baby (getting) 
Baby (care)
Baby (talking)
Baby (well) 
Baby (thinking)
Baby (walk)
Baby (lost) 
Baby (found) . . .

Now that he has no sense of destination,
Now he's running for the love of speed.
When the child goes bad it's no cause for celebration.
Like Jimmy Dean he don't talk back to me.

Failures as fathers, Mothers to chaos.
No baby, no baby, no baby no!

CHORUS
Hallo humans can you feel me thinking?
I assume you're seeing everything I'm thinking.
Hallo humans nothing starts tomorrow.
I'm the baby now.

Baby (getting) 
Baby (care)
Baby (talking)
Baby (well) 
Baby (thinking)
Baby (walk)
Baby (lost) 
Baby (found)

Baby Universe.
Baby Universe.
Baby Universal.

A speck of dust just settled in my eye,
It doesn't matter I've seen everything anyway.

Failures as fathers, Mothers to chaos.
No baby, no baby, no baby no!

CHORUS

[rickymouse]

Spent quite a bit of time reading all the stuff they know about our Universe.  That was years ago, maybe twelve to eighteen years ago.  I came to these conclusions.

First, from the point of space we are in, it would be impossible to determine how the universe was created.  and to determine what is happening.

That does not mean people will believe in a theory, it just means that there are a real lot of possibilities, and it is not really important that we know anyway.  So let them believe in their beliefs and theories, as long as they do not try to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat, it doesn't really matter.

I do think there is something to the electric universe theory...but again, it is impossible to determine that is how it works. But it could explain some of the things that are relevant to what is happening.

Second, it would be better to focus our attention on making sure we do not destroy our ecosystem with chemicals that are not natural chemistries that we are creating by science then to focus on the stars.  I would swear some of those scientists making these theories of the universe are high on something.  I am not someone who is convinced CO2 is causing carbon change, if they did not poison the microbes and poison the plants that tie up carbon the problem would not be so bad.  They have not been evaluating the pesticides and other agricultural chemicals well enough, people do not want to go out in the field and squash bugs on plants between their fingers anymore to make a living, so they spray the crap out of the crops. 

Third, since the structure of an atom is so much free space and the solids and molecules are mostly free space, why can't we presume that the universe we are in is a big leaf or something, it would explain the flatness, because the energy barrier at the edge of the universe coupled to the gravity of the leaf would itself would not let us see out the sides of the leaf or whatever it is.  It could be growing bigger and our vision of time is relevant to how we define it, time does not have to be a constant as we believe.  The shape of things in our universe somewhat match shapes of things at microscopic levels on this planet...Is this thing I made up real?  Who the hell knows, and who cares anyway, none of this really matters.  People think of science as so great, yet we think little of the miracle of life on this planet that naturally formed, life we are disrupting and an biodome we are punching full of holes to go out of the atmosphere to do science research or just to make people think we need science.

I love science, I study it a lot.  But half of the research contradicts the other half of the research, depending on who is funding or wanting the research to prove what they can profit off of.  Translation of evidence is done mostly by belief, both in knowledge we hold at that point or by consensus of the time we live in.  Again, if you read a lot of science, it starts to be you feel why are they making things so complex.  It is better to be out in the garden growing some good pesticide and herbicide free food or working making things in society we really need, things that can last a lifetime if you take care of them....think about a cast iron frying pan, Why can't people be satisfied with something, why do they have to follow the fads and buy new things to replace the old that are mostly far inferior in lifespan.  We have been conditioned to believe we need colorful and shiny things that we really don't need by those who profit by our belief in their conditioning.  We are also conditioned to believe we need science to survive, that we cannot survive without vaccines even though our ancestors did survive without them because they had adequate immune systems.  We are conditioned to believe that we need fancy expensive MRIs and CTs to verify we have a condition, when an ex-ray is really all we need at way less cost and way less risk of radiation from CTs and damage to some cells from the effect of MRIs on the iron in cells.  Doctors used to fix you up with way less cost years ago.  but those days are gone now around here....the Hospitals pay a lot of money for technology and need to use it to keep their doors open because everyone is starting to believe we need those special scans.

So although it is interesting to contemplate the universe, I would rather be like I was when I was when I was a kid, amazed with all the stars and patterns like the big dipper and other star patterns than getting all enthused about how the universe was formed.  Boy, we have had lots of northern lights over the last decade or so, why have they increased so much, I spent a real lot of time outside when I was young, camping by lakes and living on the farm and I can say I never saw this much northern lights back then.  More nice sunsets too, but those could be because of pollution I suppose. 

So if you guys want to get interested in the universe, it is your choice, but remember, don't blindly believe that what the experts say is real, they are just theories and hypothesis's they are wrapped up in, but in reality it doesn't matter what they believe as long as it does not negatively effect you...so have at it, I enjoyed researching this before I determined that there is no way in hell we can figure out how the universe was formed from this point in space we are in.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Ricky, as we are all parts of the universe, how can we get outside of it to see the bigger picture?

Let's say that we were outside of an expanding universe. We wouldn't notice this universe until the shock wave hit us and passed by. It wouldn't exist until that moment when you are inside the sphere of the expanding space. Also, you would be experiencing the beginning of the "Big Bang", meaning it would just have happened from your point of view, even though it had been heading your way for an eternity. You can't know it's out there until you become a part of it, then you're stuck on the inside without being able to look out.

[FCD]

...

...  it just means that there are a real lot of possibilities, and it is not really important that we know anyway.  ... 

Well, it kind of is important, particularly as it relates to one of my 'favorite' subjects, quantum physics. (a little sarcasm there; far from my 'favorite').  If we ever want to hear the end of people attributing every imaginable impossible thing to "quantum physics", because "quantum physics", then understanding the nature of the Universe at least from a stability state is pretty darn important.  Understanding the exact origins (i.e. exact time, and precise point) is not nearly as important as at least having a better understanding of the role of mass and some far better understandings around the reality of anti-particles.  Right now, the overwhelming justification of their existence is, simply put, kind of backwards logic when you boil it all down.  The basic explanation boils down to..."well, they HAVE to exist,  because otherwise there's no other way to explain why the Universe isn't all mass, and/or how the Universe exists in the state we observe it to be."

To me, that is not an empirical scientific explanation, and it doesn't 'prove' the existence of 'anything' (as it were).  Yes, there is an element of the esoteric in proving the existence of something which doesn't (and can't) exist...in an abstract sense.  And some do in fact use this argument to justify their conclusions of the existence of such things.  It is often scaled up to the legal concept of never attempting to prove a negative.  Personally, I think that's kind of a cop-out for convenience.

... Who the hell knows, and who cares anyway, none of this really matters.  

From a purely logic perspective, your statement proves itself!  LOL!  Because no one 'the hell' knows, it kind of proves it 'does' matter.  Thus, why people should care.

This last part was more in jest than anything else, so hopefully you don't take offense as none was intended!

[rickymouse]

...

...  it just means that there are a real lot of possibilities, and it is not really important that we know anyway.  ... 

Well, it kind of is important, particularly as it relates to one of my 'favorite' subjects, quantum physics. (a little sarcasm there; far from my 'favorite').  If we ever want to hear the end of people attributing every imaginable impossible thing to "quantum physics", because "quantum physics", then understanding the nature of the Universe at least from a stability state is pretty darn important.  Understanding the exact origins (i.e. exact time, and precise point) is not nearly as important as at least having a better understanding of the role of mass and some far better understandings around the reality of anti-particles.  Right now, the overwhelming justification of their existence is, simply put, kind of backwards logic when you boil it all down.  The basic explanation boils down to..."well, they HAVE to exist,  because otherwise there's no other way to explain why the Universe isn't all mass, and/or how the Universe exists in the state we observe it to be."

To me, that is not an empirical scientific explanation, and it doesn't 'prove' the existence of 'anything' (as it were).  Yes, there is an element of the esoteric in proving the existence of something which doesn't (and can't) exist...in an abstract sense.  And some do in fact use this argument to justify their conclusions of the existence of such things.  It is often scaled up to the legal concept of never attempting to prove a negative.  Personally, I think that's kind of a cop-out for convenience.

... Who the hell knows, and who cares anyway, none of this really matters.  

From a purely logic perspective, your statement proves itself!  LOL!  Because no one 'the hell' knows, it kind of proves it 'does' matter.  Thus, why people should care.

This last part was more in jest than anything else, so hopefully you don't take offense as none was intended!

You can spend tons of money and time researching things that do not actually make our ability to survive on this planet any better.  Who winds up paying for all that research?  Us, taxpayers and those who pay extra for products we use.

When I was in my senior year in high school, I had to have a meeting with the counselor, the counselor was aware I was going into medical school to be a doctor.  He said I had way too high of an IQ to be a doctor, a doctor usually has an IQ of between one thirty and one forty five.  I told him I wanted to help people.  and he shook his head and said I should be working at NASA.  I found out after a year and a half of college, after testing out of another year and a half, that there was corruption in the medical field, so I decided to switch fields, but I would have lost that year and a half of college I tested out of....so I quit and learned many professions over the years. 

I now am back into hacking pharmacology and studying real medicine and metabolism and food chemistry.  There is so much BS being fed people these days, that it is hard to believe what I am learning,  Seems we have been conditioned to believe in lies for many decades now.  So much that if the truth is told people can't comprehend it is real.