Old School Off-grid Living

[Ninurta]

There has not always been a "grid" to live on, but folks managed to survive anyhow. This thread is meant to be a repository of knowledge from long-ago times, times when one could not just hop in the car and run to the grocery store. Times when travel was on foot, or at best horseback. Times when your main resources were within walking distance - but "walking distance" in those days spread a bit farther afield than it does now. It just took longer to cover it.

The idea for the thread came from Bally002, in a shoutbox discussion. He's building what we called here a "root cellar", and since I grew up with root cellars, smoke houses, spring houses, etc. I offered some input, which I will reformat and post in this thread for posterity.

My Dear Old Dad insisted that I learn how to live by the Old Ways, because he always said the time may come when I'd have to be able to do for myself, because there might not be anyone available to hire for it. He said grocery stores were "a new thing that might not last", and I'd have to be able to work around it if none were available.

So we raised a garden, and we raised critters... and sometimes the two intertwined. For example, we plowed the garden and cultivated it with horses rather than a tractor. Horses burn hay, don't need a gasoline delivery. You get the fuel for them right out of the pasture. That can be handy when supply chains collapse or inflation prices commodities out of reach.

We also used the horses to fertilize the garden. One of my chores was mucking out the stalls and spreading fresh straw on the floor of them. I'd throw that mixed straw and horse manure into a manure pile ( I think they call it a "compost pile" these days), and let it set there to rot down When it got ripe, we'd use a half-sole sled (which we also built) drawn by the horses to haul the fertilizer out to the garden, then plow it under and let it work over winter to enrich the ground for the next spring's crop.

Funny thing about those manure piles - they get HOT as it breaks down. You can watch steam rise from them on cold mornings, and I've seen them bare of snow after a snow storm because of the heat they generated. You had to pile it a fair distance from the barn, because pap swore it could get hot enough to set a barn on fire and kill all your stock... and that would put you back to square one. We built our own barn, but we didn't want to have to build a second one and restock it.

We built a small blacksmithing forge, and dad did the farrier's work of shoeing the horses himself.

We kept some stock, but not a wide variety. For example, we never raised cattle, so I know jack shit about cattle raising. We kept chickens and ducks, hogs and horses... and of course the obligatory predators, like cats and dogs, for hunting and pest control. There were a lot of other folks who raised cattle around here back then, so we could always trade for any cow-products we needed. Now most of the cattle are gone, and folks have taken to raising goats in the area where I grew up. The cattle kept the pastures clear, and now that they are absent, the cedar has retaken the land and grown a forest where I remember pasture being. So I reckon those goats may come in handy now.

Back in the day, a few folks raised goats, but it was hard to keep them in. They'd get out and go feral. River Mountain had a population of feral goats on it, which some of us thought was great - you could hunt them and eat them just like a deer, but there was no goat hunting season to get in the way.

Bally002, I believe, also has a farm section on almost the exactly opposite side of Earth from me, and has input from there to include as well.

So this thread is to be a "how to" repository of knowledge for hard times. You never know when they are coming, as Dear Old Dad always stressed to me - he grew up in the Great Depression, and was insistent that I be able to fend for myself since he knew all too well how easily it can happen to anyone.

If you have knowledge to add - and I know there are some of you out there who do - please feel free. It'd not a Ninurta thread or a Bally002 thread, it's a ROGUE thread. Something you know may help someone along in hard times of their own, so toss it here in the compendium!

I'll be making more posts with more information as time rolls on and I get them edited. You can, too!

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[Ninurta]

The conversation that got it all started.

Bally002 had asked for input on a food storage structure he was building, He started the conversation with this post in the shoutbox:

Hello all, a little project I'm working on is building an underground cool room to store edibles. I'm fine with dried canned and jarred etc. But I'm trying to find a recipe for curing meat and preserving it un refridgerated for over 12 months. I've done all the googling and find that most methods do not allow for anything of a couple of months. I thought the jerky I make would last indefinitely but it is not recommended. Any tips?

so I replied with:

Sounds like you are talking about what we used to call here a "root cellar". 

We dug ours into the north side of a hill so the sun didn't hit it directly, and walled it with stone (of which we have an overabundance), then lined the stone walls with wooden shelves to hold cans. or jars. We had one dug under the house I was raised in, like a basement. In addition to the wall shelves, there was a wooden shelf structure built in the center of it, with wood bins at the bottom of that structure for holding root crops like potatoes. 

For preservation, we "canned" just about everything into Mason jars. My dear old dad would even jar up meat and fish, and it would keep for a couple years. Fruit and vegetables, like apples and tomatoes and such, were either canned or dried in the sun. Beans were threaded on strings still in the husk and dried for storage. Jerky is good, but pemmican is better, stores more energy and keeps longer. There are YouTube videos now on how to make pemmican, but the basics are dried meat, powdered, and dried fruit like berries, bound together with melted suet and cooled into little cakes. 

Root crops like potatoes and onions Would keep in the bins all year from one harvest to the next if kept in the cool and dry of the cellar, out of the sun. Some meat was salted, mostly ham, bacon, and beef, and that too was hung in the root cellar for storage..

In the northern hemisphere, the sun rides in the southern part of the sky on it's daily travels, so the north side of hills are more shady, which is where you want to locate a storage area that you want to keep cooler than average. In the southern hemisphere, the situation is exactly reversed, with the sun riding in the northern half of the sky, making southern exposures shadier there.

The cellar is dug back into a hillside or as a hole in the ground to take advantage of the natural cooling insulation of the Earth. It's lined with stone to prevent the gradual caving in of the dirt walls, and that is lined with shelving to hold whatever it is you are storing in it.

This is the first house I've ever lived in in these hills that does not have a root cellar per se. However, I do have a 3 room basement, walled in with cinder blocks and dug back into the northwest facing slope of a hill. Any one of those rooms could be pretty conveniently converted into a root cellar. In my case, to make it effective I'd have to seal the cinderblocks with something like Thoroseal. They are in contact with the dirt, and there is a water vein running under the house which creates a certain amount of seepage into the basement - more when it rains hard. Cool is good for storage, wet not so much.

Further ideas for storage enclosures from the hills:

Some folks around here had ice houses, too. It's like a root cellar, dug into a hill or underground, but during the winter they'd wait fir the river to freeze and then cut big slabs of ice out of it and haul the ice back to the ice house to keep things cool. Packed in sawdust for insulation, some would manage to save that ice and keep stuff cool up into late July or early August, which for you I reckon would equate to late January or early February. 

We also had "spring houses" or "dairies". The house I grew up in had one built on to the back of it, accessible from the kitchen. What that was was a series of troughs with water from a spring constantly circulating though them. Here, water gushes out of mountainsides in places, and it's cold water - keeps a constant temperature year 'round. You could set jugs of milk or well-wrapped cheeses into that water, and it would keep it cold like a refrigerator does now.

The one we had was built like an addition to the kitchen, with a door at the back of the kitchen to access the spring house. It had a series of 3 concrete troughs. Spring water was fed into the "high" end of it with an old iron pipe. It successively flowed from one trough to the next, and drained out the "lower" end via another iron pipe set into that end as an outlet. We had a creek running directly under the kitchen (the kitchen was built like a bridge over it), so the water from the spring house emptied directly into the creek.

That kept cold spring water constantly circulating and replenishing, keeping the water  - and everything in it - cold, like a refrigerator. Not quite as cold as a refrigerator, but cool enough.The place I grew up was composed of limestone karst, so it was shot full of caves carved out by flowing underground water. Those caves, and that water, maintained a constant temperature of around 54 degrees F until exposed to the outside world. about a half mile or a mile from my house, there was a spring that gushed from a crack in a rock cliff, and aeons ago someone had jammed an iron pipe into it, and built a stone and concrete box about 2" x 2" at the other end of the pipe. All bu the foundation of the box was gone, and the pipe therefore exposed where you could get to it, and that was the coldest water I've ever drank straight out of the Earth. I suppose that long ago there was a cabin there, and the inhabitants had built that box as a spring house to keep their stuff cold.

That little 2x2 spring box was all that remained of the homestead.


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[Ninurta]

Food storage - pemmican.

Pemmican is, at it's most basic, dried meat powder mixed with rendered suet or tallow. Most folks add dried, powdered fruit to the mix as well. It keeps practically forever, and like jerky can be eaten as-is, or boiled in water to extend it's volume and create a hearty soup base.

Any kind of lean meat that can be dried is appropriate, and any kind of fruit that can be dried is appropriate. There is a little less leeway in the fat used, as the fat must be a firm sort at room temperature to keep the pemmican from melting on the move.

There are a gazillion YouTube videos regarding pemmican, but I think the following provide a good starter kit:







And a low-tech version (bonus: cooking with pemmican):



There are a lot of YouTube videos dealing with pemmican. The ones that come to mind most are on Townsend's channel and the Tasting History channel.

One thing to remember is that it can be dual-use, just like jerky and pinole. back in the day, it was carried on trips, and could be eaten on the run or cooked at camp into various stews and soupe, the water serving to extned the ingredients and allowing them to meld together.

Pinole is another sort of "travel food" made by the Indians. It consists of parched corn coated in a wet sugar, such as molasss, honey, or maple syrup, Then dried to create a crusty coating. I think it was the inspiration for the original "Cracker Jacks". It had the same uses as described above for pemmican. Pinole is, I think, the Mexican indian name for it, and I can't recall at the moment what North American tribes called it - but it is the same thing, in any language.

ETA: I have used a regular oven before to dry the meat rather than a fancy dehydrator, which I do not have. I'd slice it thin the beat it flat, and place it on the over rack to dry, running the oven at about 175 degrees F for a couple hours with the over door cracked open to allow the escape of the moisture. That usually did the trick to turn it into a dried out, crackly version of jerky that could be pounded into powder.

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[Bally002]

Food storage - pemmican.




And a low-tech version (bonus: cooking with pemmican):

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There are a lot of YouTube videos dealing with pemmican. The ones that come to mind most are on Townsend's channel and the Tasting History channel.

One thing to remember is that it can be dual-use, just like jerky and pinole. back in the day, it was carried on trips, and could be eaten on the run or cooked at camp into various stews and soupe, the water serving to extned the ingredients and allowing them to meld together.

Pinole is another sort of "travel food" made by the Indians. It consists of parched corn coated in a wet sugar, such as molasss, honey, or maple syrup, Then dried to create a crusty coating. I think it was the inspiration for the original "Cracker Jacks". It had the same uses as described above for pemmican. Pinole is, I think, the Mexican indian name for it, and I can't recall at the moment what North American tribes called it - but it is the same thing, in any language.

ETA: I have used a regular oven before to dry the meat rather than a fancy dehydrator, which I do not have. I'd slice it thin the beat it flat, and place it on the over rack to dry, running the oven at about 175 degrees F for a couple hours with the over door cracked open to allow the escape of the moisture. That usually did the trick to turn it into a dried out, crackly version of jerky that could be pounded into powder.

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Thanks for the vids mate.  Learned a lot.  To put you in the picture of where I'm at and why I'm into a bit of preservation and calling on your knowledge.  We might need to begin with a few of Aussie sayings.

Caveat - I do not post this with thoughts of "Oh gee" poor you.

I call my land a 'selection'.  A selection goes back to the early 1800's when the British Gov let 'freemen' (ex con) and 'squatters'  select a parcel of land to improve.  The book - 'On our selection' aptly describes these circumstances and you can look it up on Wikipedia. I purchased my lot/selection/land and have title.  But still call it a 'selection'.  An old Aussie saying.

I refer to myself as having 'currency'.  or born into a 'currency' lifestyle.  So 'Currency Lad', another book is where I am coming from.   

In saying this my selection was purchased after retiring.  It's mine and 'true loves'.  'True love' in aussie slang means me and the 'missus for life'.  A genuine partner and 'battler'.  'Battler' is a term for a person who endures all odds.

Now our selection is a special parcel of land and covers 109 acres.  The house was built on site utilising native timbers some of which I find quite unique.  It is built on a slope and has 4 levels.  One of which is slowly sinking.  (I have to adjust that when I get motivated).  Back drop is hills, a small valley with permanent water.  (I hate fetching).  3 dams, coop, and a couple sheds.

We have lived here 10 years.  In 2019 the bushfires hit, records temps and dryness.  By this time I had the property set up with a couple of pumps and firefighting hoses. We had cleared the over grown bush back from the house environs. I could see it coming so I sent 'true love' (Truey as I call her) out with the pets.  She travelled 35 kilometers  away to be sure.  I spent that afternoon and all night till dawn the next day putting out the flames.  Lost my 4 x 4, boat, carport, 2 story cabin with belongings, machinery shed, all machinery, another car right up until the fire entered the house and the roof and verandah.  When the hoses and poly pipes burnt through I was then bucketting water from a trough. onto the floor, roof and timber back verandah. Thank goodness for dawn.  

"Knackered"  A term for being at the end of one's ability.  And I was.  No more water, nothing (power or gas).  The house was still smoldering on the outside and I had to 'fetch' water from a dam in buckets to put the flamin remnants out.  The house at least was saved.  Everything was scorched right up to the surrounds. 85 other houses and properties were lost around me.  That morning at 8am is another story suffice to say I don't want to go through that another time.  That was 2019.  Since then we have had a flood shortly after which washed away the ash and top soils.  Then another downpour which didn't help.  After that a mouse plague (2 months, couldn't stop the buggers) and more floods.  So, I'm not looking for any sympathy.  I was calling out through Ninurta so I can prep and am particularly interested to preserve meat long time.  

I am in the process of putting together an underground 'larder' where I can store for such emergencies as they occur.  A shelter if you may.  So I am interested in any suggestions that may be forth comimg from the other side of the globe.  

Preserving meat is difficult.  I have a lot of the other essentials stored.  Call me a prepper but I'm not that to the extent that it is the be all and end all.  I focus on other things daily.  

Points to be considered.  I can own a gun or 2 legally.  As such I must have an approved safe.  Any guns possessed must have legitimate reasons.  Each weapons needs to be registered and if I want to buy a new rifle I need to undertake a 24 day 'cooling off' period.  I need a proof of purchase and proof of safe storage which will include an approved firearms safe and another for storage of ammunition.  These are inspected at intervals.  I cannot carry any firearm in a public place open or otherwise unless being taken to a gunsmith for repair or for legitimate sporting club use.

I cannot possess animal traps.  Even for rabbits.  I cannot posses a crossbow.  I'm allowed to buy a bow and arrows but can't carry them without a legitimate reason.  Since the bushfires I can't even light a fire without informing the 'fire control' authority.  I cannot fell a tree without a permit outlining a legitimate reason.  I cannot carry a pocket knife publically without a legitimate reason.  I can't even carry on my person or in my car a knife without legitimate excuse.

So in this way we  (true love and I adjust).  We are not allowed to erect another building on our selection without going through the processes of District Council approvals, including a development application with building specs, where, when etc.  Notification to neighbours. Neighbours approvals.  This is 109 acres in the bush, go figure.

So, brings me to the OP.  Thanks Nin.  All I can do is go down  and build a larder under the house.  Maybe a bit away as the house is timber.  Still deciding where.  Hence.  I'm looking at storing food and meat is an obstacle for long term.  My project late in life.  Younger ones don't seem to give an F so I'll return that if needs be.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation and as I've alluded to, I'm looking for practical suggestions and not a communion or empathy.  Just want to put shit right.

Kind regards as always to readers and others,

Bally of the bush )

[Ninurta]

Meat curing.

Bally002 expressed an interest in meat curing for long term storage beyond 12 months, and this is how we do it around here - those that have been schooled in the old ways, anyhow.

One starts out the cure by salting the meat for varying periods of time. It's not an exact science, so the length of the saltbox period can vary without harm. it becomes a matter of taste, and knowing what one's preference is comes only with experience.

It will work for any kind of meat - pork, beef, venison, or whatever. There is not as much hog or beef raising going on here any more as there used to be when I was younger, but I still see smoke houses in operation in the fall of the year here and there, during the deer season, and I presume venison is being cured in them.

This young lady gives a good overview of the saltbox method, but that is where she stops - she doesn't get into what comes after:



Josh here gets into what comes after in these mountains. His farm is just east of here, closer to the flatlands, but in the same general culture area. Josh's dad, seen in this video, is about my age. You'll notice they are dressed for cooler weather. That's because traditionally, hogs and beeves were slaughtered and butchered in late fall or early winter, on a frosty morning after the weather started turning cold. The cold atmosphere helped in the process of curing at the beginning, using the climate as a huge open-air refrigerator. Helps keep the bugs down in the initial stages of curing, and keeps the meat cooler while it's sweating out moisture to assist in preventing spoilage during that stage.

Linguistic note: You'll hear Josh singing about being raised in "Southwest Virginia". That's the name for this specific culture area of the Appalachians, but most outsiders don't recognize that, and so they think what is being said is "south West Virginia", or the southern part of West Virginia. It's not, although they too are in the same culture area, along with Eastern Kentucky. What Southwest Virginia is is that tail part of Virginia that borders West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and Upper East Tennessee. As a result, during my years out in the flatlands, everyone I met, when asked where I was from, thought I was from West Virginia rather than Virginia. Didn't really make much difference until they started cracking hillbilly jokes. That occasionally had a sting since they were misplacing me.



Note on the liquid smoke flavoring: Smoke flavor was, originally, just a happy side result of smoking meat. the main purpose of the smoke was not to flavor the meat, it was just to keep the bugs away while it cured. Folks got used to that smoky flavor, and so liquid smoke was developed solely as a flavoring, with no practical use beyond that.

What comes after even that, one might ask? Well here ya go. Josh takes one of the shoulders to a custom butchery shop in Ohio for processing after 22 months or so of curing:



Note on molds: In the modern day, folks tend to freak out over mold - ANY mold. Fact is, there are "good" molds and "bad" molds, the bad molds being those that will kill you dead via mycotoxins. It's just like mushrooms - some are "good", and some are "bad", and will kill you dead via their own mycotoxins. The mold that grows on cured meats is usually a penicillium, the same sort we get penicillin from. Not something you'd normally want to eat, but it won't hurt you if you do. The salt tends to keep harmful molds at bay and promotes penicillium molds.

I also used to salt-cure things like hawk talons for use as pendants, amulets, or in medicine bundles. After killing a hawk, I'd cut the feet off at the joint where the leg feathers start, then with a pair of tweezers or needle-nose pliers grab the exposed end of the tendons to set the toes where I wanted them - either curled up as they are after a strike, or extended out as they are just before a strike. Then I'd pack salt at the cut end and let them sit for about 4 or 5 weeks. The salt pulled all the moisture out of the leg and dispersed it into the air, and the end result was a hawk talon that was like solid plastic, and would keep forever like that.

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[Bally002]

Meat curing.

Bally002 expressed an interest in meat curing for long term storage beyond 12 months, and this is how we do it around here - those that have been schooled in the old ways, anyhow.

One starts out the cure by salting the meat for varying periods of time. It's not an exact science, so the length of the saltbox period can vary without harm. it becomes a matter of taste, and knowing what one's preference is comes only with experience.

It will work for any kind of meat - pork, beef, venison, or whatever. There is not as much hog or beef raising going on here any more as there used to be when I was younger, but I still see smoke houses in operation in the fall of the year here and there, during the deer season, and I presume venison is being cured in them.

This young lady gives a good overview of the saltbox method, but that is where she stops - she doesn't get into what comes after:



Josh here gets into what comes after in these mountains. His farm is just east of here, closer to the flatlands, but in the same general culture area. Josh's dad, seen in this video, is about my age. You'll notice they are dressed for cooler weather. That's because traditionally, hogs and beeves were slaughtered and butchered in late fall or early winter, on a frosty morning after the weather started turning cold. The cold atmosphere helped in the process of curing at the beginning, using the climate as a huge open-air refrigerator. Helps keep the bugs down in the initial stages of curing, and keeps the meat cooler while it's sweating out moisture to assist in preventing spoilage during that stage.

Linguistic note: You'll hear Josh singing about being raised in "Southwest Virginia". That's the name for this specific culture area of the Appalachians, but most outsiders don't recognize that, and so they think what is being said is "south West Virginia", or the southern part of West Virginia. It's not, although they too are in the same culture area, along with Eastern Kentucky. What Southwest Virginia is is that tail part of Virginia that borders West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and Upper East Tennessee. As a result, during my years out in the flatlands, everyone I met, when asked where I was from, thought I was from West Virginia rather than Virginia. Didn't really make much difference until they started cracking hillbilly jokes. That occasionally had a sting since they were misplacing me.

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Note on the liquid smoke flavoring: Smoke flavor was, originally, just a happy side result of smoking meat. the main purpose of the smoke was not to flavor the meat, it was just to keep the bugs away while it cured. Folks got used to that smoky flavor, and so liquid smoke was developed solely as a flavoring, with no practical use beyond that.

What comes after even that, one might ask? Well here ya go. Josh takes one of the shoulders to a custom butchery shop in Ohio for processing after 22 months or so of curing:

..

Note on molds: In the modern day, folks tend to freak out over mold - ANY mold. Fact is, there are "good" molds and "bad" molds, the bad molds being those that will kill you dead via mycotoxins. It's just like mushrooms - some are "good", and some are "bad", and will kill you dead via their own mycotoxins. The mold that grows on cured meats is usually a penicillium, the same sort we get penicillin from. Not something you'd normally want to eat, but it won't hurt you if you do. The salt tends to keep harmful molds at bay and promotes penicillium molds.

I also used to salt-cure things like hawk talons for use as pendants, amulets, or in medicine bundles. After killing a hawk, I'd cut the feet off at the joint where the leg feathers start, then with a pair of tweezers or needle-nose pliers grab the exposed end of the tendons to set the toes where I wanted them - either curled up as they are after a strike, or extended out as they are just before a strike. Then I'd pack salt at the cut end and let them sit for about 4 or 5 weeks. The salt pulled all the moisture out of the leg and dispersed it into the air, and the end result was a hawk talon that was like solid plastic, and would keep forever like that.

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This young lady gives a good overview of the saltbox method, but that is where she stops - she doesn't get into what comes after:

Yes it was very simple.  Might try it but would like to know how long my Pork belly would keep after this process.

Josh and his father seem to have a large set up.  I don't think I could manage that.  I could put up a small smoke house I guess.  How long do you smoke the ham for and must you keep the smoker going 24/7?

I read years back about a turnover in Europe where the legs hung for 10 years and sold as such.  Couldn't find it though.  I guess temperature would be critical.

Thanks for the vids.  Checked out some others too.

Kind regards,

Bally)

[Ninurta]

Yes it was very simple.  Might try it but would like to know how long my Pork belly would keep after this process.

"A long time" is the most precise answer available. 2 + years. Now on the farm, it was rarely stored for over a year - by the next year, there was another batch of stuff to process and store, and in the intervening year, last falls products were being consumed. Canned goods were stockpiled longer. I've known of some of them being stored for 5 years before being eaten or traded off or given away.

Josh and his father seem to have a large set up.  I don't think I could manage that.  I could put up a small smoke house I guess.  How long do you smoke the ham for and must you keep the smoker going 24/7?

Yeah, that was a big setup. Most smoke houses around here are only about the size of an outhouse. We have prefab outbuildings here that you can order and have delivered for a couple thousand dollars that are about the size of the smokehouse/ storage shed they had. One of those could be converted to a pretty big smoke house by just funneling in the smoke from a fire box using a tin stove pipe.

Yup, you keep the smoke going 24/7, but at a smolder, just to produce the smoke. Too much flame burns up the smoke instead of funneling it to the smoke house. Around here, it gets smoked for about a week after the salt cure. This video from over in Harlan County may help you visualize the process. This old guy says in the video he's eaten a 7 year old ham out of the smokehouse:



This video gives you some of the chemistry of smoking:



The way this fella shows to smoke is how the Indians did it around here when the Europeans first arrived. They just built a scaffold above the fire and let the smoke rise through the stuff the put on it. Low tech, and probably won't keep as long. John White, governor of the "Lost Roanoke Colony", was eye-witness to that process and made a water-color painting of it around 1585.

"Cold smoking" is how it's done for preservation. "Hot Smoking" is for cooking the meat, like barbecue. That only goes for 12 or 18 hours, and it cooks the meat rather than preserving it. Most  back-yard smokers you can buy already made are hot smokers for cooking, not preserving, and most of the YouTube videos involve hot smoking for cooking the meat, not preserving it.

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[Bally002]

Yes it was very simple.  Might try it but would like to know how long my Pork belly would keep after this process.

"A long time" is the most precise answer available. 2 + years. Now on the farm, it was rarely stored for over a year - by the next year, there was another batch of stuff to process and store, and in the intervening year, last falls products were being consumed. Canned goods were stockpiled longer. I've known of some of them being stored for 5 years before being eaten or traded off or given away.

Josh and his father seem to have a large set up.  I don't think I could manage that.  I could put up a small smoke house I guess.  How long do you smoke the ham for and must you keep the smoker going 24/7?

Yeah, that was a big setup. Most smoke houses around here are only about the size of an outhouse. We have prefab outbuildings here that you can order and have delivered for a couple thousand dollars that are about the size of the smokehouse/ storage shed they had. One of those could be converted to a pretty big smoke house by just funneling in the smoke from a fire box using a tin stove pipe.

Yup, you keep the smoke going 24/7, but at a smolder, just to produce the smoke. Too much flame burns up the smoke instead of funneling it to the smoke house. Around here, it gets smoked for about a week after the salt cure. This video from over in Harlan County may help you visualize the process. This old guy says in the video he's eaten a 7 year old ham out of the smokehouse:

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This video gives you some of the chemistry of smoking:



The way this fella shows to smoke is how the Indians did it around here when the Europeans first arrived. They just built a scaffold above the fire and let the smoke rise through the stuff the put on it. Low tech, and probably won't keep as long. John White, governor of the "Lost Roanoke Colony", was eye-witness to that process and made a water-color painting of it around 1585.

"Cold smoking" is how it's done for preservation. "Hot Smoking" is for cooking the meat, like barbecue. That only goes for 12 or 18 hours, and it cooks the meat rather than preserving it. Most  back-yard smokers you can buy already made are hot smokers for cooking, not preserving, and most of the YouTube videos involve hot smoking for cooking the meat, not preserving it.

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Points taken. 1st vid inspired me.  Simple set up.  I can construct a small timber smoker with salt bench/box after watching that method.  An underground larder would be the go to keep the meat cool at a regular temp.  Just gotta make it critter safe.  Temp here presently range from 33C (90F) to 38C (100F) middle afternoon.  Odd storm cools things down.  Winters are mild.  Odd frost but no snow hereabouts. 

I'll wait a month to see if the temp gets milder.  Can only endure bout 2 hours outside in the afternoon sun.  Showing my age. (Caught 'Barmah Forrest Virus' a while back.  Sun ain't good for that)  After that I gotta come inside and have a sit down.  The chooks are feeling it too.  Dogs lie on the cold tiles inside. 

I appreciate your insights Nin and will keep reviewing this thread.

Regards,

Bally)

[Ninurta]

Josh and his pa again. This is a series of 3 videos that provide an overview of the process (minus the smoking - I don't think they smoke their hams) that takes a hog from hoof to sausage. 

If anyone is squeamish, and doesn't really want to know where their morning sausage biscuit comes from, they can safely skip this series. Matter of fact, it's encouraged to skip it under such conditions. The videos are not gratuitously gory or horrific, they're just a part of life. Still, some folks have a more delicate constitution than others.

It's just the hillbilly way.

Killing, scalding, and scraping:



The "singletree" they hang the hog with is actually a part of horse harness. It's the part that goes between the harness and the load being pulled. The hooks on the ends that the hog is being hung from are where the "Traces" from the harness hook to - the tugs that run from the horse's collar to the load, insuring that the horse is "pushing" the load with his shoulders via the collar. The central clevis that they are hanging the singletree from is the part that fastens to the load being pulled.

A singletree is for one horse pulling a load. We also had "doubletrees" made to hook a team of horses to a load, side by side.

Butchering:



Sausage production (while the rest of the hog is curing in a salt box):



I can recall using a grinder that was a hand crank grinder, but I think pap finally stepped into the 20th century and bought a motorized one. It wasn't a big industrial grinder like they are using, just a household model. Both types had a clamp to clamp them to the edge of a kitchen table, and then you were in business. Each type has it's advantages, with the main advantage of the hand=crank variety being exercise if there is no electricity.


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[ABNARTY]

Awesome thread Ninurta!

Finding good information on this topic is a quest. There are plenty of paths that lead to the wrong place. I was watching a couple on YT doing their "off grid" living. 

To be fair, perhaps my idea of "off grid" and their idea of "off grid" are two different things. For me, I see it as a return to generations past. Learning how to make do with not much. Canning, small scale agriculture, home remedies, neighbor networks, etc. 

But for them? Well, I'll provide some examples. They needed a road to get to where their off grid house would be. So they bought a bulldozer to build it. That wasn't enough so they bought an excavator too. Of course they need to keep it free of snow. So they bought a military FMTV truck. And a giant snowblower from the national park service. Of course the two do not come with a compatibility kit. 

So they bought a used car, striped the motor out and mounted that to the snowblower. But they needed some fabricated mounting gear. Never fear, they have a pile of sheet stock on hand and a large CNC plasma cutter. Now it all fits. 

This is all powered by a giant solar array. But in the winter it is covered with snow. So they have a giant military surplus generator to provide the power. They never mentioned where they get the diesel fuel from. 

What I am getting at is, I don't not see that as sustainable. They must have a pile of money to draw upon right now. But what happens when circumstances occur that produce an "off grid" reality? All they did was bring civilization to their home in the mountains. They never adapted to the mountains. Once fuel runs out, then what? What happens when they need parts for their fleet of machinery? I have never see them garden or raise an animal. 

... how did I get here? Oh yeah, great thread and I look forward checking in. This gardening season will be my first no or low till. I will keep everyone updated on how it goes. Trying a lot of of new veggies and preservation techniques.

[Ninurta]

Awesome thread Ninurta!

Finding good information on this topic is a quest. There are plenty of paths that lead to the wrong place. I was watching a couple on YT doing their "off grid" living. 

To be fair, perhaps my idea of "off grid" and their idea of "off grid" are two different things. For me, I see it as a return to generations past. Learning how to make do with not much. Canning, small scale agriculture, home remedies, neighbor networks, etc. 

But for them? Well, I'll provide some examples. They needed a road to get to where their off grid house would be. So they bought a bulldozer to build it. That wasn't enough so they bought an excavator too. Of course they need to keep it free of snow. So they bought a military FMTV truck. And a giant snowblower from the national park service. Of course the two do not come with a compatibility kit. 

So they bought a used car, striped the motor out and mounted that to the snowblower. But they needed some fabricated mounting gear. Never fear, they have a pile of sheet stock on hand and a large CNC plasma cutter. Now it all fits. 

This is all powered by a giant solar array. But in the winter it is covered with snow. So they have a giant military surplus generator to provide the power. They never mentioned where they get the diesel fuel from. 

What I am getting at is, I don't not see that as sustainable. They must have a pile of money to draw upon right now. But what happens when circumstances occur that produce an "off grid" reality? All they did was bring civilization to their home in the mountains. They never adapted to the mountains. Once fuel runs out, then what? What happens when they need parts for their fleet of machinery? I have never see them garden or raise an animal. 

... how did I get here? Oh yeah, great thread and I look forward checking in. This gardening season will be my first no or low till. I will keep everyone updated on how it goes. Trying a lot of of new veggies and preservation techniques.

Yeah, all that machinery and geegaws is not "off grid" to my way of thinking, it's just extending the grid to one's own location, and not sustainable.

Farm machinery, to really be "off grid", cannot depend on fuel available only ON-grid.

Here is a photo of some of our "farm machinery" back in the day:



That's my Dear Old Dad, circa 1974, tilling the garden with a Shetland Pony. In this photo, he's cutting the furrows with a single-foot plow that we made out of scrap iron pipe and a mild steel plate for the foot, all salvaged. Yes, there was color film then. It's black and white because I took it for an "art photography" class I was taking back then.

We got the pony-size harness from an Amish man dad worked with. You can make out the reins looped around Dad's neck, (over his left shoulder and back out under his right arm) but he didn't really need them. he had that pony trained to "gee" and "haw", and she knew it was time to turn around and head down the next row whenever dad picked up the plow out of the dirt at the end of a row.

We had a 7-foot cultivator that we also made out of scrap iron pipe and mild steel "feet". That was for cultivation, digging the weeds out from between rows. It had 7 tines in a chevron pattern that dug the weeds out as it went along, and churned the dirt. Weeding inside the rows was done with a hoe, and that hoe was "man powered". Fuel for it's engine came off the supper table.

That was the sort of "tractor" we used. There was a mechanical tractor on the farm, but it sat in a shed, and I never did see it in operation. It just sat there, unused.

We also made a cart - refurbished it, really, by repairing and fleshing out an old dilapidated frame. We made a horse drawn sled or sledge from scratch to haul stuff by horse power in the winter time and wet times. it had half-soles made of hickory pegged to the runners so we could change it's "shoes" whenever the old soles wore out. They were fastened on by boring holes into the split-hickory sapling to match holes in the wooden runners, and then tapping tapered wooden pegs through the hickory soles into the runners to bind them in place and cutting the pegs off flush with the soles so they didn't snag- that made it easier to just pop them off and replace them whenever necessary. I have a photo of that sled with the same pony hitched to it here somewhere, but I've never scanned it for electronic storage.

The ponies and horses were fueled with locally produced hay and being turned out in a pasture. "hay burners" is not just a concept, it can be a way of life even now. I "grained" the horses with cracked corn and oats mixed together and mixed with molasses.

I tried "no-till gardening" for my tobacco production last year, but I'm pretty sure i didn't do it right - I didn't hack off any grass, I just dug holes to transplant the tobacco into, and it didn't fare as well as I would have liked. So over the winter, I burned empty boxes, of which I have an overabundance, in a patch of the yard to kill off the weeds and grass and enrich the dirt with more carbon and minerals. I still have no means of tilling it, so it's probably gonna be something like a spading fork this spring to just break up the topsoil and churn it a bit to loosen it.

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[Bally002]

Awesome thread Ninurta!

Finding good information on this topic is a quest. There are plenty of paths that lead to the wrong place. I was watching a couple on YT doing their "off grid" living. 

To be fair, perhaps my idea of "off grid" and their idea of "off grid" are two different things. For me, I see it as a return to generations past. Learning how to make do with not much. Canning, small scale agriculture, home remedies, neighbor networks, etc. 

But for them? Well, I'll provide some examples. They needed a road to get to where their off grid house would be. So they bought a bulldozer to build it. That wasn't enough so they bought an excavator too. Of course they need to keep it free of snow. So they bought a military FMTV truck. And a giant snowblower from the national park service. Of course the two do not come with a compatibility kit. 

So they bought a used car, striped the motor out and mounted that to the snowblower. But they needed some fabricated mounting gear. Never fear, they have a pile of sheet stock on hand and a large CNC plasma cutter. Now it all fits. 

This is all powered by a giant solar array. But in the winter it is covered with snow. So they have a giant military surplus generator to provide the power. They never mentioned where they get the diesel fuel from. 

What I am getting at is, I don't not see that as sustainable. They must have a pile of money to draw upon right now. But what happens when circumstances occur that produce an "off grid" reality? All they did was bring civilization to their home in the mountains. They never adapted to the mountains. Once fuel runs out, then what? What happens when they need parts for their fleet of machinery? I have never see them garden or raise an animal. 

... how did I get here? Oh yeah, great thread and I look forward checking in. This gardening season will be my first no or low till. I will keep everyone updated on how it goes. Trying a lot of of new veggies and preservation techniques.

Great post.  I would be interested in the methods of preserving you use for respective veggies and how long you can keep them.

Kind regards,

Bally)

[ABNARTY]

Bally002, don't get me started 

It all depends on the veggie and what you plan on using it for. Take zucchini for example. They are prolific. You end up with a zillion of them. They do not have much taste themselves but they have nutrients, fiber, and mix well with other food right out of the garden. Of course, you can only eat so many fresh zucchini unless you like living in the bathroom.  

You can root cellar store them and they will last a few months at best. 

You can can them but they turn to mush. 

You can slice and dehydrate them. This works OK but they get a little rubbery in my opinion. 

I have found if you dehydrate them, grind them into a chunky powder, and mix with seasoning or other dried veggies it works great. They do not take up as much room, last a really long time, and you can tailor them to what you like to eat.

---

Ninurta, now that's what I am talking about. 

So many old farmers had piles of "junk" laying around. But that junk was at one time an investment on their part. Even after it was no longer useful as-is, the steel (or whatever) could be used to repair or fabricate other things they needed. That is a great extension of the initial investment. 

With regards to the no till, I am still experimenting. I have found many plants grow better in a little chaos. The whole concept of a sterile patch of dirt with a singular plant sticking up, does not always work for me. They seem to like company. 

Sure there is competition and you have to even the playing field now and then. Some weeding or pruning here or there. I will send pictures this year. Sequences. 

Of course, it's still frozen here in Wisconsin so that is still a way off.

[Ninurta]

We dried a lot of stuff, and canned other stuff.

Corn (maize) we just pulled the shucks back - but not off - and tied 4 or 5 ears together by the shucks and hung the ears to dry. It has to be "shelled" of the cob and either rehydrated or ground for use after drying, except in the case of parching it - you just parch the dried kernels in a skillet with a little oil or grease. It parches like popcorn, but usually less spectacularly.

"Flint" or "field" corn is better for grinding into meal or flour, and sweet corn is better for rehydrating and cooking whole-kernel. Popcorn is, of course, better for popping. It's a specialized type of flint corn.

Beans, hot peppers, and things like that we dried. We'd take a needle and thread, and run it in one side and out the other and string together a long string of them and hang the string to dry. The beans were strung while still in the hull, not individually.

Tomatoes, apples, and things like that with a higher moisture content can be sliced and dried, but it seems to me they lose something in the drying. We usually canned them. To dry them, we just sliced them and spread them out on a tin roof in the sun, but less adventurous and more prudent folk might prefer to substitute sheets of tin foil for a tin roof. As an aside, I detest dried apples, but they do keep longer. Covering them with a cheesecloth helps keep bugs off them while they are drying.

Herbs are gathered in bunches and hung to dry, usually in the sun, but always where there is air circulating whether in the sun or not, to prevent them from molding before the moisture is driven out. I still have some dried basil and spearmint from last year, and plan to add sage this year. I have a rosemary plant from last year, but it's not doing well, and I recently had to revive it with a grow light.. I'll probably pop it into dirt outside this year, if I can find a suitable dry and sunny place for it. Rosemary is perrenial, and a bush can live up to 30 years if you can get it started. Sage is also a perrennial. Where I was raised, there was a white sage bush that lived the entire time I lived there, and may have been started 50 years earlier by a great aunt.

Root crops, like onions and potatoes, were just tossed in a bin in the cellar house and stored as-is in the coolness of it. They have to be kept cool, but not frozen. if they freeze, they just mush up and become useless.

Last spring I planted some onion bulbs. I got them out of a bag of onions from the grocery store - when I saw green blades starting on them, I just took them out of the bag and popped them into the dirt in a planter outside. I [planted 3 of them in the hopes that they'd bloom and seed, but they never did, and I never harvested them. I checked them a couple days ago, and where I planted 3, there are now 8. Since they never seeded, they must have split or divided at the bulb and are still growing.

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[ABNARTY]

Just some evidence of my struggle. I am learning as I go. 


This is my start for a dedicated, dry foods, long term storage. No liquids in case the electricity goes out and we lose heat in the pole shed. I have found I will probably need to expand this. It's all stuff we use (flour, pasta, rice, etc.). We rotate through it. Oldest stuff gets used first. This provides about a 3 month buffer. Probably longer for stuff like baking soda and salt. All of it is vacuum sealed and packed with moisture absorbers. 


This is my high speed, NASA level potato and onion winter storage device. Ok... it's shelves lined with aluminum foil and a big fan dries everything out for a week or two after picking. I used old corral boards for the construction. It works really well and the veggies last for months. With the exception of the cats playing with some onions, nothing bothers them. Right now everything has sprouted so I will just stick it all back in the ground for this years crop.

---

Making some new turkeys on the place. 

Love is in the air in our neck of the woods. I got some rare pictures of turkeys mating on my game camera. I guess the cold and snow is not slowing down someone's libido. 

[Ninurta]

---

Making some new turkeys on the place. 

Love is in the air in our neck of the woods. I got some rare pictures of turkeys mating on my game camera. I guess the cold and snow is not slowing down someone's libido. 

I've seen it all now - home-made turkey trail-cam porn! Now there's something you don't see every day... not even on X-Hamster!


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