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The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - NightskyeB4Dawn - 06-28-2023
@Ninurta this on is for you.
Quote:From the documentary The Appalachians. The Presbyterian Scots-Irish from Ulster in the north of Ireland influenced this region of America with their music,religion, moonshine, independent spirit & love of freedom.
RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Ninurta - 06-28-2023
Yep, that's the stock I come from.
The McElwaynes were actual "Scots-Irish". They started out as one of the Lowland clans in Scotland, in Ayrshire, and were transported for being troublesome by James to the Ulster Plantations in Northern Ireland. After about a hundred years there, they came to America around 1720, landing in Lewes, Delaware. The family spread west from there, ending up in the Shenadoah valley amongst the Germans coming down the valley from Pennsylvania.
During the Revolution, a 14 year old Tunis Mucklewain (a few years on the frontier changed the spelling to the more phonetic version - folks back then couldn't write or read much, so names got spelled more like they sounded) joined the militia, and was an "Indian Spy" on the frontier - pretty much a scout patrolling for signs of indian incursions. One of the patrols he regularly ran was a 60 mile circuit in Tygart's Valley, in what would become West Virginia. He'd run the route, looking for sign on the travel trails, and report to the 3 forts in that valley if he found any, so they'd know to "fort up" and make sure they had dry powder and plenty of lead.
After the war, he married a nice German neighbor girl of his named Catherine Propst, and they headed into the wilderness - life had got too crowded in the Shenandoah by then, and once you've hunted men who were hunting you right back at the ripe old age of 14, you didn't fear much else the wilderness had to offer.
I dunno where the McCunes came from. Family legend says they came from Ireland around 1748, but since that was shortly after the Battle of Culloden in Scotland, I've always wondered if they might not have been Scots instead of Irish. I know they were a mean bunch, mean as rattlesnakes.
The O'Briens came from Ireland, I know not when, but Adam O'Brien was born here, in 1727...; or maybe 1740, in the wilderness. That bunch came originally from County Clare, in the west of Ireland. He was another rowdy one. Ran into the wilderness while the Proclamation of 1763 was in effect, so he did it illegally, but I don't think he much cared about that. Law didn't seem to bother him much. He lived in a hollow sycamore tree for a year or so. He was married 4 times, and didn't always bother to divorce one before he took on the next. I think he had about 18 kids altogether, among all 4 wives, and at one time he had one wife in the settlements and another in the wilderness.
O'Brien was written up in an article in "The Southern Literary Messenger", the author having a chance meeting with him at a "road house" (tavern) named "Gandy's" some time in the 1820's or 1830's I reckon. He was in his 90's at that point, and walking from his home all the way to Clarksburg "to ferret out a land title" - a 125 mile or so walk one way, just him and his hound dog. His main complaints seemed to be sheriffs and preachers - he said the preachers would come in and set the folks agin one another, getting the one half to pester the other half to look after their souls, and the sheriffs would steal the coverlets from your wife's bed and throw you out of your own house into a raging snow storm. That's how one of his wives died. She had a flu when the sheriffs came around and threw them out of their house. He got her to a nearby empty cabin, but it didn't have but half a roof on it, and before he could get it patched up, she died of pneumonia. According to Adam, he'd rather take his chances among the Indians and the panthers than among preachers and sheriffs, because the latter two "had no natural feelin' ", He didn't have much passion for "civilzation".
He died, it's said, at the ripe old age of 106. I've got his pay records from his participation in Dunmore's War in 1774. He was paid 2 shillings six pence a day, for 130 days during that expedition. That pay rate indicates he was either a sergeant of a scout - regular privates got paid 1 shilling six pence a day.
The Wrights came over around 1634, to Massachusetts... but there is one of that particular family (an Essex family) listed on the roll of Raliegh's Lost Colony of Roanoke in 1587, so some of them were here considerably earlier. Sadly, the Wrights seemed to stay in trouble with the Puritans in New England - drinking, fighting, and womanizing, which I take it the Puritans frowned upon - so they followed the sun and headed south and west into the wilderness, too.
The Griffiths came from Wales in the mid-1700's, three brothers, looking for a fresh start in a new land.
The Starchers (originally Statzers - that phonetic spelling thing rears it's head again) came from Germany, via Pennsylvania, and down into the Shenadoah Valley when they Germans settled the Shenandoah.
The Millers and the Tanners came from either Germany or England, I know not which. The Tanners were another rough bunch, but I've not been able to track them back beyond Clay County, WV - probably VA, or maybe still a colony, when they arrived there.
There's scads more, but you get the drift - I'm a mongrel, with progenitors from all over the place, who all coalesced in the Central Appalachians. Once here, they took up mountain life with relish. Abner Vance shot a man from his horse while he was riding across Clinch River for "debauching his daughter". Abner was hanged for that in 1816 in Abingdon, VA.
"Barbara Allen" was still pretty popular here when I was a kid, but it was called "Barbry Allen" in these parts. I can still hear my uncle Junior singing it. Abner Vance wrote his own death ballad while he was in jail awaiting execution, but there are several versions of it floating around now, and no one knows which, if any, is the original. It has the unimaginative title of "The Ballad of Abner Vance".
The Moccasin Gap mentioned in the video is not far from here. I go through Little Moccasin Gap every time I take Grace to her pain doctor in Abingdon, and Moccasin Gap is just west of there, going through the Clinch Mountain on the road to Kentucky that used to be called "The Wilderness Road". June Carter, Johnny Cash's wife, was raised not far from it. Her family still has singings in their barn on some Saturday nights at the Carter Family Fold.
Yup, we're all mongrels here from all nationalities, but the one thing a lot of us still have in common, as mentioned in the video, is an earned distrust of government, and a bad attitude for anyone coming along and trying to run our business for us. That often still turns out poorly for them.
Now you know why I say "I'm a mongrel, sprung from horse thieves, moonshiners, killers and malcontents".
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RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - BIAD - 06-28-2023
Finally! I've been looking forward to a time when Rogue members relate what they personally can
account for and their reality-based stories are untarnished by sensationalised media-wording.
I understand some may think family histories aren't informative because they are in the past and
often struggle to seem interesting. But it is information, it certainly is connected with today and
it's a perception on a personal level that doesn't get bogged-down with the worries of ratings-values.
Thank you.
RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Ninurta - 06-28-2023
(06-28-2023, 07:13 AM)BIAD Wrote: Finally! I've been looking forward to a time when Rogue members relate what they personally can
account for and their reality-based stories are untarnished by sensationalised media-wording.
I understand some may think family histories aren't informative because they are in the past and
often struggle to seem interesting. But it is information, it certainly is connected with today and
it's a perception on a personal level that doesn't get bogged-down with the worries of ratings-values.
Thank you.
I think family histories are important - at least to members of that family - because they tell us WHY we are WHO we are. Those histories are what made us individuals. That's where most of our being came from. If you make a bow, you need to know the kind of wood it came from, because that affects it's qualities as a finished product. If you make a saw blade, you have to know the metal it's made from, because that affects it's abilities. It's the same with people. We are but an extension of those who have gone before, and if any of that needs fixing, we are the ones who have to do that, too.
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RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Michigan Swamp Buck - 06-28-2023
I never knew or suspected my family's Scots and Irish roots until I did the family tree on Ancestry.com. I dug deep down and when I got to "Ragnar the Boneless" a Viking Berserker from around 800 AD I felt I had gone too far, plus I couldn't pronounce the Viking names.
Now I'm happy with finding the first generation that left the old country. Plus I discovered that one of the earliest ancestors on my mother's side was one of the founders of James Town that was a privateer on the side. On my father's tree are two that came off the Mayflower. As much work as they did on my dad's family tree back to Germany, they missed the Mayflower connection that was through a family from whom my grandfather got his middle name. Plus many who were in the Revolutionary War. Can't find much on the Civil War, but I'm sure Mom's side was involved in that one as they were slave owners up to that time.
RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Ninurta - 06-28-2023
(06-28-2023, 01:00 PM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: I never knew or suspected my family's Scots and Irish roots until I did the family tree on Ancestry.com. I dug deep down and when I got to "Ragnar the Boneless" a Viking Berserker from around 800 AD I felt I had gone too far, plus I couldn't pronounce the Viking names.
Now I'm happy with finding the first generation that left the old country. Plus I discovered that one of the earliest ancestors on my mother's side was one of the founders of James Town that was a privateer on the side. On my father's tree are two that came off the Mayflower. As much work as they did on my dad's family tree back to Germany, they missed the Mayflower connection that was through a family from whom my grandfather got his middle name. Plus many who were in the Revolutionary War. Can't find much on the Civil War, but I'm sure Mom's side was involved in that one as they were slave owners up to that time.
Well hey there, cuz! I've got paper-trails Ragnar Lodbrok on both sides - through Ivar the Boneless on one, and through Bjorn Ironside on the other. Also Charles Martel - and therefore Charlemagne - Boudicca, William the Bastard, Odin, and apparently Jesus Christ, among others. I don't really put a lot of stock in that, though. After you get so far back, there isn't really a paper trail to follow, so I suspect most of that is fanciful and just made-up to fill someone's family tree out. Boudicca, for example - there are two different stories on how she died, and no record at all of what became of her daughters... so how in the hell would anyone be able to connect her to their family tree through a paper trail if there is no paper trail there to follow?
The paper trail to Jesus Christ reads like a Dan Brown novel, and I suspect that's where it really came from. BUT - my DNA DOES match to some Merovingian burials from the 6th century or so, so who the hell really knows?
I've also got a paper trail to a Baldwin Fulford, knight, who was beheaded on 9 Sepember 1461 in Devon for treason against King Edward IV. Apparently, he considered the Lancastrain Henry VI as "rightful sovereign", and supported him against Edward when Eddie successfully usurped the crown. Some times, life can suck when you stick to your guns and maintain your principles. One story has him being beheaded in Bristol, and another says he was beheaded in the courtyard of his own estate at Great Fulford. Whether Great Fulford and Bristol are co-located, I know not, but it could also just be another example of a made-up paper trail.
Those paper trails are why I got into DNA analysis - the genes don't lie - but that's only good for 7-10 generations back before entire branches start dropping out of the DNA family tree. So, you may find some branches supportted by both a paper trail AND the DNA, SOME that are supported by one but not the other, and it's a fair bet that there are some that exist, but are supported by neither.
Life is a roll of the dice.
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RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Michigan Swamp Buck - 06-29-2023
Ah, howdy distant cousin!
There was one long list of Vikings and such leading back to Ragnarsson, of course, I went back to 873 when he died. That was through the MacLean and MacDonald clans.
Quote:Ivar Ragnarsson nicknamed the Boneless (inn beinlausi), was a Danish Viking chieftain (and by reputation also a berserker), who, in the autumn of 865 A.D., with his brothers Halfdan Ragnarsson (Halfdene) and Ubbe Ragnarsson (Hubba), led the Great Heathen Army in the invasion of the East Anglian region of England.
Here's a good one. I found one ancestor that was related to both my mother's tree and my father's tree. A male ancestor married a woman then another, one from each side. That was 7 or 8 generations back, here in the New World.
The Mayflower connection is with John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley, both from off the Mayflower. Also Chief Quadequina Wampanag, the native who shared popcorn with the pilgrims.
The Jamestown connection is with Captain William Tucker (1589-1644)
I'm also related to Capt Tobias Lear Secretary to George Washington and a half dozen or so Lords and Ladies in Ye Ole England.
RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Ninurta - 06-29-2023
(06-29-2023, 08:17 PM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: Ah, howdy distant cousin!
There was one long list of Vikings and such leading back to Ragnarsson, of course, I went back to 873 when he died. That was through the MacLean and MacDonald clans.
Quote:Ivar Ragnarsson nicknamed the Boneless (inn beinlausi), was a Danish Viking chieftain (and by reputation also a berserker), who, in the autumn of 865 A.D., with his brothers Halfdan Ragnarsson (Halfdene) and Ubbe Ragnarsson (Hubba), led the Great Heathen Army in the invasion of the East Anglian region of England.
Here's a good one. I found one ancestor that was related to both my mother's tree and my father's tree. A male ancestor married a woman then another, one from each side. That was 7 or 8 generations back, here in the New World.
The Mayflower connection is with John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley, both from off the Mayflower. Also Chief Quadequina Wampanag, the native who shared popcorn with the pilgrims.
The Jamestown connection is with Captain William Tucker (1589-1644)
I'm also related to Capt Tobias Lear Secretary to George Washington and a half dozen or so Lords and Ladies in Ye Ole England.
Here's the thing with family trees, both DNA-based and paper-trail based: for each generation back one goes, the number of people in that generation doubles. We have two parents, 4 grand parents, 8 great grand parents, 16 great great grandparents and so on. at the same time, each generation back we go, that generation had fewer people on Earth to choose from, because there are fewer people making more children for the next generation. So, at some point in time, you arrive at a place where there are more people in that generation of your family tree than there are people on Earth to fill all the positions. For me, that point is reached about 29 generations back, around 1150 AD - a mere 800 years or so.
Compounding that is the fact that some folks were not reachable by other folks then - Australian Aborigines or American Indians, for example, were not reachable by Europeans in 1150 AD, meaning that the pool is even smaller than expected, as parts of the world population were not available for breeding at that time, and that means that some folks will necessarily start appearing in one's family tree multiple times.
The farther back one goes, the worse that problem becomes.
So, mathematically, it is certain that if we dig deeply enough, we're going to find that multiplication of individual people in a family tree. I've found similar things in mine - 8 or 9 generations back, I start finding my dad's surname in my mom's family tree, for example. I also find "Evans" and "Price" in both, and if I dig deeper back, there are sure to be more instances.
You also find unexpected things. There is sub-Saharan African DNA in my testing, too, but no paper trail to any Africans. No idea if it was a slave, an indentured servant, or or a freeman. All I know is that he or she was right near the cutoff of 7-10 generations where the DNA is susceptible to disappearing altogether - I have a small bit of it, but my son has none. It's disappeared from the DNA in our generations. I also have a small snippet of DNA from what is now Bangladesh, with no paper trail to tell who it was, or when. That bit DID get passed on to my son, largely unchanged.
I find only one single record of any ancestors that were slave owners - the will of one mentions his "Indian slave gal". No mention of what kind of "Indian" she was, whether feather Indian or dot Indian.
In the other direction, the paper trail, I find an Irish slave girl named Mary and owned by the Custis family (Martha Washington's bunch) that was stolen by another ancestor - Christopher Nutter, I think his name was - and made away with shortly after his arrival in America in the mid-1600's. They skied away to another colony - started in Virginia, ended up in Maryland - and made good for themselves somewhere called "St. Mary's". But it's not possible to separate out that girl's Irish DNA from other Irish DNA, like the O'Briens. I don't know, really, even if any of her DNA made it this far up the tree.
Court records show that Nutter got in a boatload of trouble for stealing her, but he got to keep her all the same and they were later married. He set up trade with the Naticoke Indians, and eventually became the official interpreter to the Naticoke tribe for the Colony of Maryland. He was paid in tobacco, because money was scarce and hard to come by, and tobacco was the medium of exchange at that time.
This is the sort of stock I come from - slave owners, slaves, slave thieves, and all of them escaping from "civilization" and pushing the boundaries into the wilderness.
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RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Michigan Swamp Buck - 06-30-2023
Well Ninurta, it sure sounds like we're related.
My Aunt, my maternal grandmother's sister, she was the family storyteller about her family's move west to the Colorado Territory from Missouri after the Civil War. They were wandering around from Virginia to Kentucky then eventually Missouri with their "help" as she put it, but obviously, she was talking about slaves. Apparently everyone including the "help" were crying when the war was over and slavery ended as their slaves were part of the family (not that I can find those folks easily). Now I believe it was Captain William Tucker that brought over the first slave couple to have children in what would become the United States, so Mom's family had been at it since they landed.
That all aside, I think we should try and find a common ancestor here in the New World. I think we'll find a closer relationship than good ole Ragnarsson. Did you know that the nickname "boneless" is thought to be because he had a medical issue? Can you guess what that was?
RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - Ninurta - 06-30-2023
(06-30-2023, 12:10 AM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: Well Ninurta, it sure sounds like we're related.
My Aunt, my maternal grandmother's sister, she was the family storyteller about her family's move west to the Colorado Territory from Missouri after the Civil War. They were wandering around from Virginia to Kentucky then eventually Missouri with their "help" as she put it, but obviously, she was talking about slaves. Apparently everyone including the "help" were crying when the war was over and slavery ended as their slaves were part of the family (not that I can find those folks easily). Now I believe it was Captain William Tucker that brought over the first slave couple to have children in what would become the United States, so Mom's family had been at it since they landed.
That all aside, I think we should try and find a common ancestor here in the New World. I think we'll find a closer relationship than good ole Ragnarsson. Did you know that the nickname "boneless" is thought to be because he had a medical issue? Can you guess what that was?
That sounds like Grace's family's migration story-Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, Kansas, and spread out from there. Come to find out, one of her ancestors was a political figure in the county of VA that I grew up in, and I knew about him, but he had died 200 years ago. I found her in Missouri, and until we started digging, had no idea that her roots were actually in the same place mine were.
I've heard a lot of stories about both slaves and slave-holders being upset by emancipation, for the same reason you state, but you can't get folks to believe that now, since they're so indoctrinated. That doesn't advance the "reparations" narrative.
Capt Tucker - was he the captain of the 1619 ship? While the 1619 project is mostly hogwash, it's true that the first Africans in VA came in to Jamestowne in 1619. They had been bound for the Carribbean for slavery, but got detoured to Jamestown and their indentures were sold to colonists. Note they were "indentured", not "chattel slaves", so when their time was up and their indenture worked off, they were free to go do as the wished. More than free - Virginia colonial law at that time required their former master to provide them with a gun and a new set of clothes before sending them off to find their own fortune.
There were no chattel slaves in the English colonies until the mid to late 1600's, and as it turns out, one of my ancestors may have been the first known, recorded chattel slave, a guy with the last name of "Bunch" I'm still researching that, so it's not certain, but it might explain that bit of African DNA I've got. He was enslaved, but his son was not - the law had not yet been passed to make the children of slaves slaves themselves since slavery was a brand new thing here, just created in that court case,, so his son went off and did his thing when he was of age, a free man.
One explanation for Ivar the Boneless' name is that his stiffer wouldn't peck up, so he had no "bone" - I reckon that's enough to make a fella irritable enough to want to kill other folks and take their country. I mean, he'd have plenty of time on his hands - what else would there be to do?
Now, I don't know yet all of my ancestors that first came to these shores, but think that looking at New England ancestry might be the way to go to find our first American common ancestor. For example, I also had some folks on the Mayflower - not that any of those snooty society mayflower families would claim me now - and that might be a place to start looking. I can't recall any of the mayflower names off the top of my head, but I do recall a "Plimpton", "Plympton", or "Plumpton" depending on who is spelling it, that was captured by Indians during Pontiac's War and carried off to Canada, and burned at the stake there.
There is another, a Wright, who was a ship's captain out of a port in Connecticut, who died at sea during a Bermuda run, and was buried at sea.
I'd have to fire up GRAMPS and run through it to get more names and details, which I can't do at the moment.
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RE: The Appalachians: The Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish - NightskyeB4Dawn - 06-30-2023
My maternal grandmother was a medicine woman and people came from all around to be treated by her.
My paternal grandmother brought in visitors for her apple cider (the real kind) and her wines. My grandmother could make an alcoholic drink out of potatoes, berries, and fruits.
She immediately came to mind when I heard the story of the Big Haley, the Appalachian Moonshine Queen.