(08-01-2025, 12:01 PM)FCD Wrote: ETMN posted a link in Shoutbox to a subject called Dyson Spheres, and "Dyson Swarms" in particular.  There's some really good subject matter here to discuss, so I thought I'd create a thread about the same (hopefully this is okay with you, ETMN).

I'll first post the link which ETMN posted in Shoutbox, and also another related link.

The link which ETMN posted...
Lifespan of a Dyson Swarm

Here's another link giving some background on what a Dyson Sphere is...
Dyson Sphere

For those unfamiliar, and/or those who don't wish to go to a link, here's a brief summary of what a Dyson Sphere even is...
A 'Dyson Sphere' is a bizarre concept but one which is pretty easy to describe (actually creating one is a whole other matter!)
A Dyson Sphere is basically a 'shell' constructed around a star whose purpose it is to capture solar and radiant energy from said star to power a civilization (in a nutshell).  A Dyson Sphere would be constructed by an advanced civilization presumably living on a planet which orbits this same star.  In practice, the civilization would have to wait until the star goes through a couple phases in the evolution of a star.  The star is first just your usual star.  Then, as the star nears the end of its life, it metamorphoses into a 'Red Giant'.  When this phase is complete, the star then collapses into a 'White Dwarf'.  A White Dwarf is what you build your Dyson Sphere around.  It should be noted that a star can collapse into several things, and a White Dwarf is only one of these.  If it has enough mass, for example, it can also collapse into a Black Hole.  And, there are other variations beyond even these two.  The point here being, the civilization would need to know enough about their star ahead of time to know what it was going to collapse into.  AND, this is kind of important too; the planet which houses the civilization would also need to be at a radius far enough away to survive the Red Giant phase (which is not easy, BTW).  Life on that planet would be mighty cold existing that far away from it's own Sun.  It would be akin to our Pluto, but at a distance to 2x - 3x that of Pluto's.  But I digress.

Obviously, this whole subject is nothing more than an "out there" theory.  No such structure like a Dyson Sphere has ever been observed (not from lacking effort trying mind you), but there is emerging technology (funded by your tax dollars) to build just such a infra-red telescope.  And it would be a BIG puppy indeed!  Very big, to observe something this far away!  Anyway...

Much conjecture surrounds the whole Dyson Sphere concept, even to the point of physicists and astronomers developing theories around how to go about constructing one around our Sun (for example).  The technical challenges of building such a structure are mind bending to say the least.  One simple example of these challenges is, the gravitational forces created by the mass of a star would collapse any rigid structure which was built around it constructed of any materials known to mankind.  This is but one hurdle.  BUT, there is a point here, this challenge also gives way to another concept known as a "Dyson Swarm".

Instead of building a rigid structure, an alternative approach would be to create a constellation of satellites orbiting this star and performing the same function.  (We'll ignore the technical challenges of transporting the captured energy here for the moment).  However, there's a challenge with this approach as well, and that challenge is...how long will this swarm (or constellation) of satellites live/exist before these same satellites start colliding with each other in what is known as a Kessler Storm (also known as a "cascade" where one satellite collides with another, blasting both to bits.  The tiny bits collide with (10) (or 50) other satellites, destroying them too.  And this process continues, exponentially, until they ALL destroy each other.  (Bad ju-ju, right?)

Well, these same astronomers and physicists have already thought of this, and even done calculations about how long it will take for this event to occur (a "Dyson Swarm Lifespan").  Turns out this number is about 41,000 years.  Not very long when you consider it could easily take that long (possibly longer) to construct it in the first place!

This whole discussion begs the question of...How realistic is any of this???  At a very fundamental level, the answer to this question is contained in some basic philosophical discussions.  Things like...is this really the best way to solve our energy crisis, or are there other methods (like maybe nuclear power) which would possibly render this whole concept a non-starter??  In other words, at a far simpler level, should the civilization of the future depend exclusively on solving all their energy needs with solar power?

I won't answer that question with my opinion here (now).  First, I wanted to get the discussion started, and then depending on the responses, I can weigh in with my own opinions on the matter.  There are a lot of really 'bright' (pun intended) people here, so I figured this might be an interesting discussion to get some of the other technical minds here buzzing along.

I'll look forward to your replies.

(08-01-2025, 09:25 PM)FCD Wrote: Kenzo - That's interesting!  I'd like to understand more about this 'beaming of the captured energy back to Earth'.  I've not ever seen electrical energy be able to be transmitted/transferred through air...other than lightning.  Anyway, a 1 km solar array in space orbiting around the Earth seems like a pretty doable thing even with the current technology we already have.  It's really just building a bigger one than they have so far.  

I'm not sure how something like this would go over with the public here on Earth though, because you'd be able to see it pretty easily, even during the day.  Plus, something like this would definitely cast a massive shadow on the ground where it was between the Sun and the Earth.  This would likely be something people would object to, I think.

Anyway, great post!

Edit - Oh, and I'm 100% positive the liberals would scream bloody murder over something like this because, well, just because they bitch about every other single thing.  And, as long as they have someone's ear, they're going to continue doing it...about more and more stuff!  Even though this is solar power, the liberals would probably conjure up some theme about it being racist because white people launched it and they're stealing all the 'poor people's' free energy (or something)!

(Yesterday, 05:34 AM)Kenzo1 Wrote: It seems they have allready tested the beaming in Earth years ago.....shorter distance/low power.....but it did work .

...

There is risk also, what if meteorites strike it down ? There should be system in place to see incoming particles , move the array  to avoid collision. 

But what if big volcano event ? that creates ash layer to atmosphere, blocking the beaming.....it has happened in history i think.

(Yesterday, 07:40 AM)F2d5thCav Wrote: FCD,

  Sometimes I wonder if a group has not already 'stolen' 'free' energy (and other stuff), and just checked out of everyday life: the breakaway civilization.  AKA, "See ya, suckers!"

(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)gortex Wrote: For me Dyson Spheres are the thing of science fiction but Dyson Swarms I think far more likely , so much so there already astronomers searching for them and may have discovered a candidate in Tabby's Star due to its periodic dimming mystery , a swarm of collectors would make more sense opposed to calming and containing a Star with the resources and risk that would take , although I'm just a puny Human so what would I know.

(Yesterday, 11:16 AM)FCD Wrote:

(Yesterday, 05:34 AM)Kenzo1 Wrote: It seems they have allready tested the beaming in Earth years ago.....shorter distance/low power.....but it did work .

...

There is risk also, what if meteorites strike it down ? There should be system in place to see incoming particles , move the array  to avoid collision. 

But what if big volcano event ? that creates ash layer to atmosphere, blocking the beaming.....it has happened in history i think.

Yes, I should have clarified my statement better.  I meant beyond the milliwatt/watt range.  Thanks for the video.  I will be sure to check it out.

Regarding collisions with meteorites, a couple comments.  Any meteorite big enough to cause damage to a 1km array would also pose a pretty serious threat to Earth.  I think I'd be more worried about that than the array itself.  A meteorite striking a space borne solar array would likely only have a hole punctured in it which is both not serious and is repairable.  Solar arrays in space like the ISS for example have already been damaged by meteorites or other space debris, and they just repaired it.  Secondly, the do have ways to alter (slightly) the position of an orbiting object to avoid meteorites and space junk.  They do this fairly frequently with the ISS.  However, they cannot change the orbit, but they can, and do, change the orientation and altitude to avoid collisions.  As long as they know of the object far enough in advance (which they generally do with any sizeable object).  Space debris is a far bigger hazard actually.

Yes, you make a valid point about volcanoes or some heavy haze of some sort interfering with transmissions back to Earth...if the the haze or whatever is above a certain density.  So yes, this would be a valid concern, and one I don't know if they've factored in at this point.  The whole concept is so theoretical at this point, it's still really only a rough concept.

---

-------------------------------------Separate Reply!  (dammit!) Fully 25-30 minutes later! ------------------------------------
(This is the only website I have this issue with!  Seriously!  I just know it's not me.  And I did hit the "New Reply" button too, not 'Edit")

(Yesterday, 07:40 AM)F2d5thCav Wrote: FCD,

  Sometimes I wonder if a group has not already 'stolen' 'free' energy (and other stuff), and just checked out of everyday life: the breakaway civilization.  AKA, "See ya, suckers!"

F2, Any civilization who was truly 'advanced' wouldn't give Earthlings the time of day if they have a lick of sense!  They'd avoid this place like the plague.

(Yesterday, 05:45 PM)Kenzo1 Wrote: Yeeh it`s only a concept  , i shoulda be more clear about that .
I did not know they can repair solar panels in space , must be really good transparent duct tape  

(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)gortex Wrote: For me Dyson Spheres are the thing of science fiction but Dyson Swarms I think far more likely , so much so there already astronomers searching for them and may have discovered a candidate in Tabby's Star due to its periodic dimming mystery , a swarm of collectors would make more sense opposed to calming and containing a Star with the resources and risk that would take , although I'm just a puny Human so what would I know.