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Changes - Ninurta - 03-08-2024
We are living in a liminal time, in a liminal world.
The concept of "liminality" involves a between-ness, the "'tween". It is a time, a place, or any other transitional thing that is neither one nor the other, neither the old nor the new, but a transitional position between the two,
AJ at "The Why Files" has an entire video explaining the concept, with examples:
Liminality leaves most folks with a feeling of anxiety, often a troubled feeling that one can not quite put a finger on, but an unsettled feeling nonetheless. It happens when we find ourselves in a transitional time or place, where we are no longer anchored on the old, nor have we a firm grip on what comes next. We feel adrift, in an alien place, and desperately want to be firmly in one or the other, but not "between".
These are the times we find ourselves in currently. We are unmoored, adrift, moving, but seemingly without a direction, and without a compass to point the direction out. It's leaving most of us feeling unsettled, anxious, despondent. What was, is no more, and we have no soil to root ourselves in any longer, and no clear view of what's on the other side, or how to get there..
Because we feel this way, we have a desire to lash out and place the blame on the "other", whichever polarity is opposite our own, "They" are either propelling us into a reality we don't want to go in to, or else retarding our progress in getting to shore again, where we can firmly plant our feet and become grounded once again. Which one of those it is depends entirely on our beginning orientation. An example is "Conservatives vs, Liberals". Which one we place the blame on is whichever is opposite to the place where we once were, and felt comfortable.
So, it's either "those damned Liberals are wrecking our world!" or "those damned Conservatives are blocking our progress!"... but, in reality, it is neither. We are simply in a place of liminality, a time of transition, and neither Conservatives nor Liberals have any control over the way the wind is blowing us at all. We are simply in a time of change, and neither "they", nor any other group ("the Elites", for example), has any damned control over the situation at all. it just IS, and it's just in flux. Where it ends up is anyone's guess, and under no one's control. That's just about as unsettling as anything else, until you realize a few things.
First, this is nothing new to the human experience. It happens ever time a civilization collapses, in the in-between time before a new one coalesces.
It happened around 1180 BC, during the Bronze Age collapse. It happened at the end of the Roman Empire, what is now called "The Dark Ages" came before a new civilization and social order arose - the Renaissance. It happened in Russia during the 1917 revolution, and again some 70 years later when the Soviet Union collapsed, before the Russian federation became a thing. It happened in America, first during the American Revolution, then 80 years or so later during the Civil War. That last one was the transitional period from a true Republican form of government to a more centralized and authoritarian form of government called a "democracy".
It has happened time and time again, all around the world, in various times and various places, although not often in all places all at once. Some transitions were larger, and some smaller - the fall of Rome was a larger one, the collapse of the Soviet Union a smaller one, but the conditions and the way folks felt at those times and in those places were and are always the same. They feel unsettled and anxious until something new and substantial comes along.
We also need to recognize that none of us, neither "side", in in control of it. Instead, it has a randomness and chaos brought about by the swirling eddy currents created by everyone trying to seize control all at the same time. The tussle and the struggle of that produces chaotic vortices, that will continue to swirl and destroy - as well as create - until it settles back down into the new system, whatever that may be. We all have some small degree of influence over the eventual outcome, but none of has, or even can have, absolute control of it. The outcome is actually determined by all of those little bitty bites of control that we each have. The new system forms itself out of those.
Understand as well that this is nothing new, nothing that humanity has not survived over and over again on multiple occasions. We will survive again through this one as well. Perhaps not all of us individually, but humanity as a whole will continue onward, forging the Brave New World to come in the aftermath of the fall of the last one we had.
All we can really do, as individuals, family units, and communities, is to hold on for dear life. Just ride this spinning raft until is settles on a beach somewhere, and enjoy the ride as much as we can until that time comes. Understand that the time WILL eventually come that it settles back down again, and order is once again restored. It may not be the same order we had gotten used to before, and probably won't be, because it seldom is, but it WILL come again, and is not under the control of any one faction of us, but rather under the micro-control of all of us, thousands of tiny cuts that will eventually lead to the shape of the final sculpture.
We, individually and in communities, can control NOTHING that is beyond the length of our own arms... and the world is much bigger than that. We can have a small, local influence, but that which comes will be much wider than our reach. We must be prepared to adapt to whatever it is. Adaptability is the greatest strength humans posses. It's gotten us through all, each and every one, of the previous liminalities that humanity has endured and conquered.
As a final thought, Douglas Adams had it exactly right in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" - DON'T PANIC! It'll all eventually work out. The less stress you bring upon yourself by worrying over an inevitability that you have no personal control over, the better.
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RE: Changes - GeauxHomeLittleD - 03-08-2024
I feel we live in one of the most interesting of times. Even as we are circling the drain and feel the loss of equilibrium the insanity is quite entertaining.
RE: Changes - Ninurta - 03-08-2024
(03-08-2024, 04:32 AM)GeauxHomeLittleD Wrote: I feel we live in one of the most interesting of times. Even as we are circling the drain and feel the loss of equilibrium the insanity is quite entertaining.
Wasn't there an ancient Chinese curse that said "may you live in interesting times" or something like that?
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RE: Changes - GeauxHomeLittleD - 03-08-2024
(03-08-2024, 04:46 AM)Ninurta Wrote:(03-08-2024, 04:32 AM)GeauxHomeLittleD Wrote: I feel we live in one of the most interesting of times. Even as we are circling the drain and feel the loss of equilibrium the insanity is quite entertaining.
Wasn't there an ancient Chinese curse that said "may you live in interesting times" or something like that?
It appears so.
Quote:"May you live in interesting times" is an English expression that is claimed to be a translation of a traditional Chinese curse. The expression is ironic: "interesting" times are usually times of trouble
RE: Changes - EndtheMadnessNow - 03-08-2024
(03-08-2024, 04:46 AM)Ninurta Wrote:(03-08-2024, 04:32 AM)GeauxHomeLittleD Wrote: I feel we live in one of the most interesting of times. Even as we are circling the drain and feel the loss of equilibrium the insanity is quite entertaining.
Wasn't there an ancient Chinese curse that said "may you live in interesting times" or something like that?
.
I wasn't sure either so a quick search led me to...
Quote:May You Live In Interesting Times
Question for Quote Investigator: The most fascinating periods in history were filled with tumult and upheaval. Tales of treachery, wars, and chaos provide compelling reading, but the participants who were living through the momentous changes were probably experiencing trepidation, hunger, and pain. Here are three versions of a saying that has commonly been described as a Chinese curse:
May you live in interesting times.
May you live in an interesting age.
May you live in exciting times.
I asked a Chinese friend about this expression, and she said that she had never heard it before. Would you please explore its provenance?
Reply from Quote Investigator: Fred R. Shapiro who is the editor of “The Yale Book of Quotations” has noted that: “No authentic Chinese saying to this effect has ever been found”1. In addition, Ralph Keyes stated in “The Quote Verifier” that nobody has ever been able to confirm the Chinese origin claim.
The earliest strong match known to QI appeared in a March 1936 newspaper report in “The Yorkshire Post” of West Yorkshire, England. The expression was used in a speech by an influential British statesman. Boldface has been added to excerpts:
Quote: Sir Austen Chamberlain, addressing the annual meeting of Birmingham Unionist Association last night, spoke of the “grave injury” to collective security by Germany’s violation of the Treaty of Locarno.
Sir Austen, who referred to himself as “a very old Parliamentarian,” said:—
“It is not so long ago that a member of the Diplomatic Body in London, who had spent some years of his service in China, told me that there was a Chinese curse which took the form of saying, ‘May you live in interesting times.’ There is no doubt that the curse has fallen on us.”
“We move from one crisis to another. We suffer one disturbance and shock after another.”
A collection of short stories in vernacular Chinese was compiled and published in Suzhou, China in 1627. Two of the tales contained a maxim that expressed a somber preference for times of peace and stability versus war and turbulence. In the story “The Oil-Peddler Wins the Queen of Flowers” the main characters were driven from their home by warfare:
Quote:Thirsty, hungry, they bore all manner of hardships;
Where would they have a home to call their own again?
They prayed to heaven, earth, and their ancestors,
Not to let them run into the Jurchens.
Truly, better be a dog in days of peace
Than a human in times of war!
The tale “Bai Yuniang Endures Hardships and Brings about Her Husband’s Success” also included commentary on the devastation of war:
More at Quote Investigator
Ironically, quote from Robert Kennedy 1925–68:
Quote:There is a Chinese curse which says ‘May he live in interesting times.’ Like it or not we live in interesting times. They are times of danger and uncertainty; but they are also more open to the creative energy of men than any other time in history.
speech, Cape Town, 6 June 1966; the Chinese saying has not been traced, and is likely to be apocryphal.
![[Image: xhgZ3PZ.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/xhgZ3PZ.jpg)
RE: Changes - Schmoe - 03-08-2024
I've always had this weird feeling of wishing I lived in a distant past age.
I always just wanted a simple life. Going back and living amongst the Scottish highlanders appeals to me. Seems like living was simpler then. Not easy by any means, but more simple.
I've always had this weird feeling that something is coming, and like you said, I can't put my finger on what. It feels like something is coming, but I can't tell if it's something bad or good. The feeling makes me lean towards bad.
RE: Changes - Ninurta - 03-08-2024
(03-08-2024, 08:18 AM)Schmoe Wrote: I've always had this weird feeling of wishing I lived in a distant past age.
I always just wanted a simple life. Going back and living amongst the Scottish highlanders appeals to me. Seems like living was simpler then. Not easy by any means, but more simple.
I've always had this weird feeling that something is coming, and like you said, I can't put my finger on what. It feels like something is coming, but I can't tell if it's something bad or good. The feeling makes me lean towards bad.
I try to keep the outlook that there isn't any "bad" or "good", but that it's all in how you face it, whether you adapt and overcome, or whether you just succumb to whatever comes.
I'm with ya on having been born a couple of centuries too late. Not sure a Highland life would be for me, though - it gets seriously cold there some times! Some of my ancestors managed it handily, but then again I have no doubt that they were better men than me!
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RE: Changes - GeauxHomeLittleD - 03-08-2024
Not really so sure I'd want to live in "highlander" times. On one hand I would have been revered as a wise woman, a healer and possibly a priestess but in the blink of an eye that could turn around and I possibly would have been stoned to death or burned at the stake. Even "simpler" times have their dark side!
RE: Changes - Schmoe - 03-08-2024
(03-08-2024, 05:59 PM)GeauxHomeLittleD Wrote: Not really so sure I'd want to live in "highlander" times. On one hand I would have been revered as a wise woman, a healer and possibly a priestess but in the blink of an eye that could turn around and I possibly would have been stoned to death or burned at the stake. Even "simpler" times have their dark side!
Oh they absolutely did have their dark times, as well as when they were subjugated to English rule for a while. I'm talking aside from wars and politics, the way of life itself. Farming, trading, hunting, gathering, those aren't necessarily easy things, but simpler. That way of life appeals to me more than the current system we're all a part of. Banks and businesses didn't control life back then like they do now. Oh well, I guess if I really wanted to, I could ingratiate myself with the Sentinelese on their island, granted I don't get myself spinning slowly over a fire.
RE: Changes - EndtheMadnessNow - 03-09-2024
(03-08-2024, 11:35 PM)Schmoe Wrote:(03-08-2024, 05:59 PM)GeauxHomeLittleD Wrote: Not really so sure I'd want to live in "highlander" times. On one hand I would have been revered as a wise woman, a healer and possibly a priestess but in the blink of an eye that could turn around and I possibly would have been stoned to death or burned at the stake. Even "simpler" times have their dark side!
Oh they absolutely did have their dark times, as well as when they were subjugated to English rule for a while. I'm talking aside from wars and politics, the way of life itself. Farming, trading, hunting, gathering, those aren't necessarily easy things, but simpler. That way of life appeals to me more than the current system we're all a part of. Banks and businesses didn't control life back then like they do now. Oh well, I guess if I really wanted to, I could ingratiate myself with the Sentinelese on their island, granted I don't get myself spinning slowly over a fire.
I know what you mean/feel. I wouldn't mind going back to these times/days:
![[Image: QlEVASw.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/QlEVASw.jpg)
In real life I'm not Highlander badass. Don't think I'd survive very long, but I get you on the simpler times.What Gunny Ninurta said.
RE: Changes - Snarl - 03-09-2024
(03-08-2024, 03:55 AM)Ninurta Wrote: Liminality leaves most folks with a feeling of anxiety, often a troubled feeling that one cannot quite put a finger on, but an unsettled feeling nonetheless. It happens when we find ourselves in a transitional time or place, where we are no longer anchored on the old, nor have we a firm grip on what comes next. We feel adrift, in an alien place, and desperately want to be firmly in one or the other, but not "between".
Tell me about it. We're ready to sell this place and an investment home in Texas. Go and get committed to the place we'll live in 'til things go dark.
I've never lived in an area I liked more than where we are right now. I should know ... I've moved over 20 times since I moved out of my parent's house. But, the past couple of months I can walk around the side of the house and it just feels like I've fallen into a dream and I'm in a place I don't belong (or don't belong anymore).
The place in VA is almost done. Was back there a week or so ago and it doesn't feel welcoming to me (at least not yet). The wife's leery of it because it's so remote. I don't expect her to be out there much anyway. It's gonna be a guy's retreat if it turns into anything at all.
Worst of all, we've tried to find a simple house-in-town to buy and can't find one for the life of me. We did see an alternate option, a sub-homestead sized property just outside the city limits, but the sellers jacked the price through the roof. I asked the real estate agent where the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of improvements could be seen ... and she stood there with no answer and a look on her face like she'd been caught trying to steal something. We'll take a different approach next time we go.
I got a haircut this morning after my chores were done. The barber was talking to me in whispers saying he could feel the dam was about to break. The guy never talks to me. He just cuts my hair. Weird one today.
Can't put a finger on when I first got that feeling. Maybe when Bill Clinton's impeachment just petered out. Maybe when the Peanut Farmer flopped. Maybe when Nixon took us off the Gold Standard. I ain't the first one to get it. Age|Maturity|Worldliness probably has a lot to do with it. I don't really get that feeling when I'm around other people most of the time. Not unless they bring it up in discussion.
Good topic. Good thoughts in here.